Been doing this for a while and have still to fully master the art of pumping for minutes on end (even 10sec can feel like minutes). I have tried almost everything on SUP-foil from 2600sqcm Foilsmart, 2400 Go-foil, 2000 AK and Foilsmart, 1800 SPG (275), 1500 SPG (250), 1280 SPG (210) and now 1210 Kujira.
I have also tried 1050AK HA on wing, pumping flatwater and downwind. I was amazed at how well it pumps with a wing, but wing pumping is slightly different as you get slight assistance from wind, especially when it hits 25kn + and if in ocean, you start getting bumps for assistance as well, reducing the reliance on physique and optimal foil.
There is a clear correlation between foil size and it's ability to carry you vs forward speed. The bigger the wing, the more lift and lower stall speed - and conversely the smaller foil loses these positive attributes for pumping whilst being able to go (and be pumped to) much higher speed.
Speed equals lift, so a faster foil should be able to carry you but at some point the weight and possibly lack of finesse/fitness of the pilot will stall the foil.
For fun we put 9kg weight-belt on one of our 78-80kg frothers who can pump for days - it killed him. His pumping was done, he was at best as good as me and my mate who are members of the 90kg + club. Not sure if it proved a point but the rider weight seems to be a major obstacle when we get to the +85/90kg mark.
So my question is: Where is the optimum compromise between lift and speed for the heavier guys over 85-90kg? What size foil and design optimises this?
We know High Aspect pumps better and that although many brands are now bringing out medium aspect wings with great allround qualities, it seem they do invariable shed a little pumpability.
What works for you and what board combo are you using? SUP-foilers are further handicapped by their massive volume needs 100-120L + adding another 3-4kgs and swing-weight over a small prone board.
New York Foiler dude has some really cool pump videos on Youtube and his preferred tool to date is the Axxis 1150 (1800)- he weighs 86kg and uses a very small board behind a boat or off his bungy. I've tried the Axxis 1150 for winging and it really has great glide and pump but the wingspan etc made it feel quite limited with a wing in turns. Another good one for wing-pumping was the F-One 1780 Phantom - it was probably the best compromise I've tried on a wing between pumping and allround useability in turns and manouvers at my weight.
But for now I'd be keen to hear from the heavies - what works for you for the best pumping results without a wing?
Very interesting subject this actually is simple in aerodynamics theory it is called wing loading and in simple terms is the total area of the wing divided by the total weight of the aircraft so you can do the same to our sport calculating the total weight of foil+board+rider and divide the foil area with it
Another key thing to consider is the L/D lift to drag ratio ,it is actually what we call glide ,the L/D at aircraft's is measured by meters of forward movement by every meter altitude loss ,the best L/D is at a certain speed ,now the most important think is that if the wing loading increases (heavier SAME plane)the L/Dstays the same but the but the speed that you have to go to achieve it is higher,for example let's say that a 300 kilo glider has 40/1 L/D @60 kts if we load the same glider with 100kg of water ballast it has 40/1 LD @90 kts (random numbers not real exactly)but you got the point
Are you assuming pumping power is directly linked to bodyweight?
I know a handful of otherwise good windsurfers...100% jibes....at less than 65 kgs, who cannot pump effectively whatsoever.
OTOH, pro slalom sailors near 95 kgs who can pump with such efficientcy they can actually use the same size sails as the 65 kg guys.
Select to expand quoteLeeD said..
Are you assuming pumping power is directly linked to bodyweight?
I know a handful of otherwise good windsurfers...100% jibes....at less than 65 kgs, who cannot pump effectively whatsoever.
OTOH, pro slalom sailors near 95 kgs who can pump with such efficientcy they can actually use the same size sails as the 65 kg guys.
You missed the point about without a wing. Sails count as a wing and we are assuming equal fitness and technique.
Agree with Dpap that physics will dictate that the heavier you are the larger wing you will need. @105kg with very average technique I can almost pump an 1850 wing for 100m, on my 1250 that drops to 50m. Both when coming off the wave fast and having a fresh offshore behind me. Guys who dock start use larger wings due to a slower starting speed. More efficient higher aspect wings help.
Technique is king but lighter fitter riders have an advantage in needing less input to maintain glide. With a ding, even flagged out, I can pump much further.
Don't they say the same in windsurfing?
100 kg is super fast and stable.
65 kg can plane more days, slowly.
So, what else is new.
I think it's more like pumping strength and pumping speed ability of the person.
Obviously one would start with the basics like foilwing size recommended for body weight.
After that the person will refine down to a smaller, higher aspect foil as strength & or ability improves.
So when a highly experienced person goes back to the original larger foil, he or she may find it quite slow & boring. But would probably keep pumping it all day.
Just my view.
Select to expand quotehilly said..LeeD said..
Are you assuming pumping power is directly linked to bodyweight?
I know a handful of otherwise good windsurfers...100% jibes....at less than 65 kgs, who cannot pump effectively whatsoever.
OTOH, pro slalom sailors near 95 kgs who can pump with such efficientcy they can actually use the same size sails as the 65 kg guys.
You missed the point about without a wing. Sails count as a wing and we are assuming equal fitness and technique.
Agree with Dpap that physics will dictate that the heavier you are the larger wing you will need. @105kg with very average technique I can almost pump an 1850 wing for 100m, on my 1250 that drops to 50m. Both when coming off the wave fast and having a fresh offshore behind me. Guys who dock start use larger wings due to a slower starting speed. More efficient higher aspect wings help.
Technique is king but lighter fitter riders have an advantage in needing less input to maintain glide. With a ding, even flagged out, I can pump much further.
100m at 105kg is impressive! What foil is that? Have you tried the Axxis 1150 or F-one Phantom 1780?
The wing-loading and Lift to Drag relationship that Dpap is alluding to is what I'm fishing after. Riding the Kujira 1210 I had great pumping and projection as I'd exit a wave at speed, but the minute the speed tapered off a fraction my pumping action would stall the wing and drop - it felt like there was too much "wing-loading" ie. I was just too heavy for it.
This is where lighter riders seem to be able to pick up speed again and even get the foil to climb back up to a higher ride height which we also know is more efficient. Once I drop in ride height or speed the only foil I can occassionally work back up is the SPG275 (1800) - but it's a very slow wing and I was hoping that the increased efficiency of a smaller wing may be able to achieve the same.
The prone rider in this clip is 230? Big guy. One of the better pumpers around. Riding go foil nl160? Something like that.
instagram.com/p/CI1KJXDDPsN/
Select to expand quoteHdip said..
The prone rider in this clip is 230? Big guy. One of the better pumpers around. Riding go foil nl160? Something like that.
instagram.com/p/CI1KJXDDPsN/
That was a great clip to watch, for reference how old is Clinton ?
I believe technique/fitness & age are also important factors to be consided as well as weight...for pumping.
Select to expand quotePeterP said..100m at 105kg is impressive! What foil is that? Have you tried the Axxis 1150 or F-one Phantom 1780?
Armstrong 1850 and at almost 58 yrs young I need rest after that distance 
Select to expand quoteHdip said..
The prone rider in this clip is 230? Big guy. One of the better pumpers around. Riding go foil nl160? Something like that.
instagram.com/p/CI1KJXDDPsN/
I saw a pumping race below all GoFoil HA wings in the lead.
Select to expand quoteHdip said..
The prone rider in this clip is 230? Big guy. One of the better pumpers around. Riding go foil nl160? Something like that.
instagram.com/p/CI1KJXDDPsN/
What eFoil was the other dude on?
Steamroller isn't young. Has a fake knee too.
the other guys on a lift with the 150 front wing I think. He went through three batteries that day. Long session.
holy cow LeeD!...i think its been about 20 years since ive seen you around!...waaaay back on the surfline msg boards....cool!
im 240lbs+/109kg...with an a stainless steel knee ...i think its all about speed...the faster you keep it running...the more lift you can generate...up to a point..
.i use the smallest wing i can get away with the NL160 with the low drag KDMaui tail...as long as i keep the speed up i can fly forever if the waves keep coming...if i let the speed drop below a certain point i can sometimes save it with a lot of really short quick pumps but its a LOT of work...usually not worth it because then im ready to pass out!...but as long as im flying fast i can link bump to bump to bump without dying...faster is better
with the bigger wings the NL190 and the NL220 if i go too slow i can save just about anything and still fly at really low speeds but theyre not nearly as much fun and you can you can really tell the difference in how long it takes to pump back out to the next wave...i end up being just as tired or more pumping the big wing because im pumping longer between waves...can also kind of feel the big wing dragging...quadratic drag...like it cant get out of its own way
NL160!...keep it running fast
www.instagram.com/tv/CKCtFQpgUYJ/?igshid=13hjcvz85uxc9
NL160!...keep it running fast...oh yeah im also 50 yrs old...and kinda fat!...haha
www.instagram.com/tv/CKCtFQpgUYJ/?igshid=13hjcvz85uxc9
Speed is key, but lots of work trying to keep a 1000 sq cm wing going in 8-12 knots, unless you apply 91 cm width board and 9 meter sail. Then, you got some work dealing with that huge rig.
Huge foil for light wind does work.
Huge sail for light wind also works.
The 2 together has little range at the upper end.
Select to expand quotesteamroller said..
NL160!...keep it running fast...oh yeah im also 50 yrs old...and kinda fat!...haha
www.instagram.com/tv/CKCtFQpgUYJ/?igshid=13hjcvz85uxc9
Nice work steamroller, I've been told the nl160 has around the same pump as the Kujira 1210 - I will have no excuses at 53yo & 73kg 
Agreed that maintaining speed & staying high are what keeps you pumping.
Select to expand quoteLeeD said..
Speed is key, but lots of work trying to keep a 1000 sq cm wing going in 8-12 knots, unless you apply 91 cm width board and 9 meter sail. Then, you got some work dealing with that huge rig.
Huge foil for light wind does work.
Huge sail for light wind also works.
The 2 together has little range at the upper end.
This is the SUP foiling forum....
Select to expand quotesteamroller said..
NL160!...keep it running fast...oh yeah im also 50 yrs old...and kinda fat!...haha
www.instagram.com/tv/CKCtFQpgUYJ/?igshid=13hjcvz85uxc9
Awesome work.
That's the easy bit linking with the swell. Now pump back to the start, like the little young'uns do, for a real workout
Select to expand quotehilly said..steamroller said..
NL160!...keep it running fast...oh yeah im also 50 yrs old...and kinda fat!...haha
www.instagram.com/tv/CKCtFQpgUYJ/?igshid=13hjcvz85uxc9
Awesome work.
That's the easy bit linking with the swell. Now pump back to the start, like the little young'uns do, for a real workout
Incredible...! you could just get a ski to drag you back out...?
Steamroller's experience shows the value of the lower drag of a smaller foil - if you can keep the speed up! Maybe the sweetspot for pumping is around the 1000 - 1200sqcm (160 - 200sqin) irrespective of bodyweight as the parasitic drag on anything bigger reduces the efficiency.
Naturally it also depends on application, if you have a wing you might be able to get away with something smaller. If you are sup-foil downwinding then you might still need something bigger just to get the initial lift to get up and going plus, depending on the downwind conditions the ocean may not offer that much speed (ie. zero-fetch dwd)
And then there is the back-wing and fuselage part of the equation, Steamroller mentions the KD Maui stab, I have no idea how big it is but on on the SPG's I personally found the bigger stabs worked a bit better for me, but maybe I need to re-look this and try the smaller stabs for less drag and rather focus on more speed.
Select to expand quoteIce E said..Incredible...! you could just get a ski to drag you back out...?
The ski is a fun option for the less talented like myself
Select to expand quotePeterP said..
Steamroller's experience shows the value of the lower drag of a smaller foil - if you can keep the speed up! Maybe the sweetspot for pumping is around the 1000 - 1200sqcm (160 - 200sqin) irrespective of bodyweight as the parasitic drag on anything bigger reduces the efficiency.
Naturally it also depends on application, if you have a wing you might be able to get away with something smaller. If you are sup-foil downwinding then you might still need something bigger just to get the initial lift to get up and going plus, depending on the downwind conditions the ocean may not offer that much speed (ie. zero-fetch dwd)
And then there is the back-wing and fuselage part of the equation, Steamroller mentions the KD Maui stab, I have no idea how big it is but on on the SPG's I personally found the bigger stabs worked a bit better for me, but maybe I need to re-look this and try the smaller stabs for less drag and rather focus on more speed.
It's an interesting topic, I have found the smallest tail with least amount of shim and therefore least drag works the best.I also have discovered the shortest fuse helps as well and Im not sure why.
I can pump up out a hole ( low on mast or speed ) much easier on a bigger foil (1850) and can make more mistakes and survive than I can on a smaller foil, but if I do everything well on the small foil ( 1250 or 1050 )it's easier to cover more ground efficiency as there is less overall drag. When I was learning I found the longer fuse and bigger tail easier only because it gave more lift and stability.
I am 100kg on a 6'5" 130l sup. A few months back I changed to axis from NP, the big wings of my quiver- NP XL 100cmx2000cm2 Axis 101cm x1400cm2. Used both for sup foil surfing and winging.
I can definitely pump much better on the Axis 101, less drag, more speed, more glide. With the NP I felt like I was fighting the drag and would lose speed quite quickly as I pumped. With the 101 I get noticeably more propulsion out of the pump and can keep it going much better.
The NP would get up on foil at a lower speed than the Axis but from a practical experience the difference in low end is marginal. If anything the 101 has better low end as its easier to keep it up on foil both for pumping and winging transitions.
I'm 95kg+wetsuit and regularly pumping out for 2 and rare 3 for 1s on a SUPfoil. Using everything from a Kujira 980 (tiny) up to a Gofoil NL220 (huge). Honestly, pumping on the different wings is a different experience, but I don't really think that the size of the wing matters much if you adapt to it. You can go further on the same energy on a faster wing for sure though. As for the wing, I think the most important thing is super low drag (good design).As for conditions - you want to get off the wave while it still has a lot of energy and you have great speed. You'll get another boost gliding down the backside of the wave! In addition, you'll pump best on a glassy day. The calm water in the top meter or so of water is super important. Much harder to pump in choppy conditions.
That said, I've learned what REALLY matters for pumping - two things - 1) board weight and 2) where the center of gravity of the board is.I've ridden several different boards of various sizes and with various foil placements, so I'm pretty confident in my findings.
1) big guys struggle to pump not because they are big, but because they are on big boards. The difference between the volume that a 60kg person can ride versus a 95kg person is huge. When I pump my prone, I can pump all over the place. Its like an easy button for pumping after riding a SUP. My smallest SUP is considerably easier to pump. Too bad I can barely balance on it in flat-water.
2) turn the board over and lift the board and foil from about 1/3rd way back from the leading edge of the front foil (the lifting center - thickest portion of the foil). It should be nicely balanced and perfectly level when lifting there. Pay attention to the board being level - it might seem balanced, but a little bit off level is NOT balanced. Most commonly, foilSUPs are nose heavy and it is the #1 thing that kills pumping. When you unweight the board, it doesn't come up higher in the water. You literally have to push down the tail as you unweight the nose to get it to come up. The weight on the tail kills the pump completely and you end up just see-sawing up and down and not accelerating forward. Move the foil to the spot where the system is perfectly balanced or just a little nose-light and everything will start coming alive. An inch can seriously make the difference. If you can't catch a wave with the foil in that spot, get rid of the board or give up on pumping - you can't solve this problem. I have owned two boards like this and I had to ditch them after a lot of experimentation.
Select to expand quotejondrums said..
I'm 95kg+wetsuit and regularly pumping out for 2 and rare 3 for 1s on a SUPfoil. Using everything from a Kujira 980 (tiny) up to a Gofoil NL220 (huge). Honestly, pumping on the different wings is a different experience, but I don't really think that the size of the wing matters much if you adapt to it. You can go further on the same energy on a faster wing for sure though. As for the wing, I think the most important thing is super low drag (good design).As for conditions - you want to get off the wave while it still has a lot of energy and you have great speed. You'll get another boost gliding down the backside of the wave! In addition, you'll pump best on a glassy day. The calm water in the top meter or so of water is super important. Much harder to pump in choppy conditions.
That said, I've learned what REALLY matters for pumping - two things - 1) board weight and 2) where the center of gravity of the board is.I've ridden several different boards of various sizes and with various foil placements, so I'm pretty confident in my findings.
1) big guys struggle to pump not because they are big, but because they are on big boards. The difference between the volume that a 60kg person can ride versus a 95kg person is huge. When I pump my prone, I can pump all over the place. Its like an easy button for pumping after riding a SUP. My smallest SUP is considerably easier to pump. Too bad I can barely balance on it in flat-water.
2) turn the board over and lift the board and foil from about 1/3rd way back from the leading edge of the front foil (the lifting center - thickest portion of the foil). It should be nicely balanced and perfectly level when lifting there. Pay attention to the board being level - it might seem balanced, but a little bit off level is NOT balanced. Most commonly, foilSUPs are nose heavy and it is the #1 thing that kills pumping. When you unweight the board, it doesn't come up higher in the water. You literally have to push down the tail as you unweight the nose to get it to come up. The weight on the tail kills the pump completely and you end up just see-sawing up and down and not accelerating forward. Move the foil to the spot where the system is perfectly balanced or just a little nose-light and everything will start coming alive. An inch can seriously make the difference. If you can't catch a wave with the foil in that spot, get rid of the board or give up on pumping - you can't solve this problem. I have owned two boards like this and I had to ditch them after a lot of experimentation.
I'm in the very early learning stage...My 7'0 x 28" JP 2020 SUP foil needs the foil all the way forward in the tracks to get that balanced point. Luckily it has long tracks.
interesting im going to check this out...
absolutely agree of testing moving the placement all around to find thw correct spot...a new board or foil or tail ot wing usually takes me several hours to get it diales in just right
Select to expand quotejondrums said..
I'm 95kg+wetsuit and regularly pumping out for 2 and rare 3 for 1s on a SUPfoil. Using everything from a Kujira 980 (tiny) up to a Gofoil NL220 (huge). Honestly, pumping on the different wings is a different experience, but I don't really think that the size of the wing matters much if you adapt to it. You can go further on the same energy on a faster wing for sure though. As for the wing, I think the most important thing is super low drag (good design).As for conditions - you want to get off the wave while it still has a lot of energy and you have great speed. You'll get another boost gliding down the backside of the wave! In addition, you'll pump best on a glassy day. The calm water in the top meter or so of water is super important. Much harder to pump in choppy conditions.
That said, I've learned what REALLY matters for pumping - two things - 1) board weight and 2) where the center of gravity of the board is.I've ridden several different boards of various sizes and with various foil placements, so I'm pretty confident in my findings.
1) big guys struggle to pump not because they are big, but because they are on big boards. The difference between the volume that a 60kg person can ride versus a 95kg person is huge. When I pump my prone, I can pump all over the place. Its like an easy button for pumping after riding a SUP. My smallest SUP is considerably easier to pump. Too bad I can barely balance on it in flat-water.
2) turn the board over and lift the board and foil from about 1/3rd way back from the leading edge of the front foil (the lifting center - thickest portion of the foil). It should be nicely balanced and perfectly level when lifting there. Pay attention to the board being level - it might seem balanced, but a little bit off level is NOT balanced. Most commonly, foilSUPs are nose heavy and it is the #1 thing that kills pumping. When you unweight the board, it doesn't come up higher in the water. You literally have to push down the tail as you unweight the nose to get it to come up. The weight on the tail kills the pump completely and you end up just see-sawing up and down and not accelerating forward. Move the foil to the spot where the system is perfectly balanced or just a little nose-light and everything will start coming alive. An inch can seriously make the difference. If you can't catch a wave with the foil in that spot, get rid of the board or give up on pumping - you can't solve this problem. I have owned two boards like this and I had to ditch them after a lot of experimentation.
Very nice findings here I also believe that a balanced board,foil makes a huge difference,foils have come to a decent design stage but boards have a long way to go or be taken more seriously by shapers!!
