Hello everyone,
Asking for your opinion! Would it help to have a foil ranking system/website powered by the community? A more systematic approach than the forum?
- Anyone could enter his foil reviews, we can agree on different key criterias(*) for prone, winging or dockstarting for example.
- All reviews/rankings could be organized and cumulated in different global rankings, the database could be searched in any desired way. You could see what is the strongest setup, the one with the most glide, or just the overall highest score.
- Individuals giving multiple reviews would gain credibility, you would know what they can compare their experience to.
(*) Prone criterias could be (each rated with a decreasing weight) : Glide, Roll, Ease of use, Energy input per pump, Tip breach recovery, Stall speed, Max speed, Full breach recovery, Whitewash stability, Sliding ability (surfboard feel), Robustness/construction, Weight,..
The main idea would be to organise global knowledge and gain clarity. The forum does a great job as it is, especially when it comes to feels and preferences, and maybe that's what matters. Curious to have your opinion.
Cheers!
More definitive objective data for comparison is helpful...this google docs is a regular go-to for me:
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17xbTGEWSVeRhnYb_4vz_Gmby8UnrDys7Q1iB-6rC6F4/edit?fbclid=IwAR1GgMuvw0L6FKIuycKPk9kxe0wNXs4SNxJ1wk0VNxWis6u1cQETmbOsp8Q#gid=0
For the rest, nice to compile reviews in one spot for ease of reading, but the rankings I don't expect would be that useful. For one thing, people tend to love most what they are riding, especially after paying $$$$ for it. Another is that it's very difficult with online reviews to get to an apples to apples comparison: one rider is in Maui with daily 30kt and head high wind swells, another is in a lake in Switzerland fresh water with 1foot confused chop...so many variables. Third....reading online reviews requires reading critically as you don't really know who you are talking to or how real their feedback is (whether their perception of their own riding actually matches the reality of it).
But if you have the time and inclination, give it a go, see if it works. You may want to keep it down to a limited number of variables to keep it simpler, at least to start. 
In order to make these kinds of assessments, you need to have a vast enough dataset for relative comparisons. Very few people have access to enough foil setups in order to provide highly informed comparisons and opinions. I'm in the US and the two largest retailers for winging equipment that I know of literally have only one person at each shop that has enough experience with the product to provide an informed opinion. There are a couple of smaller foil-specific shops out there, which have the opportunity to differentiate on customer service - remains to be seen if they will. I would gladly give my money to a retailer who could give me informed and reliable feedback vs an uninformed sales pitch.
Highly subjective. Talk to crew, read reviews and then read in between the lines. Look for similarities and differences in ideas on a particular foil. Then join the rest of us spending our kids inheritance trying to find the perfect setup. 
Ps which doesn't exist lol.
I watched a guy on a just delivered lift ha90 today. I think the perfect surf wing may have just hit the market :)
Select to expand quoteHdip said..
I think the perfect surf wing may have just hit the market :)
Where have I heard that before? Oh yeah, the last 20 or so new foils released 
We could make a Foil BS Bingo game ... "best day ever" and "epic" come to mind as things I can no longer say without extreme eye-rolls in my house.
Select to expand quotejuandesooka said..Hdip said..
I think the perfect surf wing may have just hit the market :)
Where have I heard that before? Oh yeah, the last 20 or so new foils released
We could make a Foil BS Bingo game ... "best day ever" and "epic" come to mind as things I can no longer say without extreme eye-rolls in my house.
You forgot the best of them all... game changer
Select to expand quotejuandesooka said..
Where have I heard that before? Oh yeah, the last 20 or so new foils released
But have you heard it from me? :) I can complain about all the brands. I'm speaking about specifically surf wings here. The problem has always been you can either turn, or you can pump.
I watched a guy do the same turns he does on the lift surf 100v2 and pump as good as he pumps on the ha120. He did say the glide is slightly less. We shall see when they start getting out to more people.
To foilstate: Just look at all the issues plaguing online reviews, and try to think how you could avoid them...
In practice, I do not see how it could work, between the various technical levels and tastes of testers, the subjectivity of people, plus the guys that will try to game the system for fun and/or profit.
In my opinion, these kind of comparisons should only be done on objective tests. For instance with a foil dragged with a weight at a fixed speed along a dock, or behind a boat, with measuring instruments.
Note that the advent of add-on motors could provide an objective test: e.g: stand on the board motionless, and see how soon the foil lift the board when the throttle is set at some power...
Select to expand quoteHdip said..juandesooka said..
Where have I heard that before? Oh yeah, the last 20 or so new foils released
But have you heard it from me? :) I can complain about all the brands. I'm speaking about specifically surf wings here. The problem has always been you can either turn, or you can pump.
I watched a guy do the same turns he does on the lift surf 100v2 and pump as good as he pumps on the ha120. He did say the glide is slightly less. We shall see when they start getting out to more people.
Do you think these smaller foils are better suited to linear / smooth / non turbulent water? Personally I have taken to the RS1000 over the 120HA because the 120 feels 'touchy' when riding our local beach breaks which is 90% of the time for me, if I was riding smoother breaks / less critical then maybe I would prefer the 120, if I was just a better rider maybe 120 but I often hit the deck on the 120 I find it's not very forgiving. 120 I'm spending so much mental effort just managing the situation I can't just relax and try to rip. I think the reason it feels 'touchy' is that less area is more reactive to disturbed water than a larger area foil with similar lift/drag performance.
Have you tried the RS series yet? I rate this over 120 but then again I have not tried any axis ART or lift 90ha so who am I to say what's epic or not?
RAt her than the proposed foil ranking system, the procurement process for me remains: buy it, try it, like it and keep or dislike or outgrow and sell. Costly process I guess but I'm not regretting it so far.
Thanks for your feedback!
@juandesooka yes I also use that google sheet with foil specs.. loving it. And yes.. "Foil BS Bingo game", this is capturing the essence of the problem, hype over facts, pushing people to buy the best marketed gear.
So it's very subjective and biased.. I hear you. Depending a lot on people's skills and local conditions, and people are biased by their sponsor or the fact that they just bought an expensive kit.The best solution would be a standardized set of tests, for glide, roll, energy per pump, flex, load at breaking point,.. Wakethief started such tests for flat water, seeking the most efficient pumping foil. Dominic Hoskyns also did some great investigation in light wind winging, seeking the lowest wind starting wing setup. Both of them are not sponsored by any major brand I believe, aiming at a particular goal, regardless of brands. I think the waves also deserve some investigation and reviews of some sort.
Second best solution would be side by side comparison on a given day, same rider, same board, filmed from the outside, and he would give the differences of feel.
Third best solution is trusting one person who has tried a lot of gear. Hadou brunner is doing detailed videos around winging, reviewing a lot of gear, so you can trust that knowledge in a way.
Let me know if you have ideas for foil (wave) reviews/ranking, either online (collecting data or creating a ranking system) or in the water, I would be happy to help the community in the most unbiased way possible. If the hype is all there can be, so be it
Standardized testing is so difficult in foiling. Personally I find it takes me the first 10-15 mins of every session, 3-4 waves, until I "feel" the foil properly, accounting that day's unique variables of wave size, strength, direction, period, current, tide, salinity, etc etc, as well as my own energy, tiredness, soreness, flexibility. So for my own testing, I can really only make good comparisons in side by side tests ... get a few waves, swap it out, get a few more. Which never happens, so it takes me months to get a decent comparison and really understand what a piece of kit can do.
The wakethief bungee system on a lake seems about as scientific a testing I've seen. Same pull every time, on a flat lake, nicely controls the variables. Not much help for wave riding, but he has some nice controlled testing about ability to ride 2nd wake on a jetski etc. So maybe a starting point could be to approach him and offer to tabulate his results, then see about adding to them.
And remember.....for every dozen riders using the highest rated "best" gear, there is one guy heads and shoulders better than any of them....using the lowest rated "worst" gear.
Select to expand quoteLeeD said..
And remember.....for every dozen riders using the highest rated "best" gear, there is one guy heads and shoulders better than any of them....using the lowest rated "worst" gear.
haha, I thought that was only at my beach. And I wish that guy was me. 
Select to expand quoteI think if you wanted to create something like this on such subjective equipment, with such a huge variety of riders, it would probably be best to test foils and develop your own scale. Many people do this type of thing already. Piros etc...?Select to expand quoteIt's great to hear a variety of feedback on different gear from different people rather than one more than another.
Select to expand quoteburchas said..juandesooka said..Hdip said..
I think the perfect surf wing may have just hit the market :)
Where have I heard that before? Oh yeah, the last 20 or so new foils released
We could make a Foil BS Bingo game ... "best day ever" and "epic" come to mind as things I can no longer say without extreme eye-rolls in my house.
You forgot the best of them all... game changer
Don't forget 'NEXT LEVEL'??
I'd love to see any foil ranking system, the more info out there the better for those wanting to see what might suit their riding style & conditions. Goes without saying that would have to be regulated by amateur/consumers and not influenced by sponsored riders or the brands. I agree there are potential flaws but I still think the more info out there the better - obviously the parameters need to be stated and adhered to in some way or it'll just be a free-for-all of 'mine is best'. My train of thought is that foil designs are now so refined that they all perform well - IN THE RIGHT CONDITIONS and for what you'll be doing with them. I used to ride GoFoil (L, then GL, then NL - haven't ridden the GT or RS) and I thought it couldn't possibly get any better, until a mate sent me the Kujira 980 to try - it blew my mind!!!! For me the 1440, 1212 and 980 were soooooo much better than the existing GoFoils, they let me progress way faster (because the way they ride was just more suited to my style, my conditions and what I was dong with them), BUT, a mate of mine (who rides GoFoil) tried my kujira's and hated them. Axis foils also blow my mind because their range is so big that you can literally choose the foil with the exact performance style that you want (or need), but only if you know what that is, hence my liking of this suggestion.
What foil is right for each person is mostly down to the conditions you ride in and what riding style you have, so although a ton of people posting what each foil FEELS like to ride could be a tad too subjective to be useful, a list of what foils work well in what conditions could be very useful, as long as it's backed up with sound reasoning. Eric (prog proj) and Harold Brunner both do this really well not only by saying which foils suit which conditions but by backing up their opinions with reasons - i.e. which foils HE PERSONALLY thinks are good at bashing white water BECAUSE.... it slides really well through white water rather than trying to track through a turn like in normal water.
Could be useful, but I wouldn't want to oversee it??
