Hi all,
In a previous life I worked as a sail maker for yachts, building sails from maxi yachts to skiffs, I've long since moved on, but my keen eye for design and shape has never left me.
All the current wind wings are made from kite cloth, and it appears generation II is moving to lighter weight cloth. This is pretty logical for some shapes and some wind ranges, but not all. Following this the S2 window from Naish is just garbage, and will stretch and bag out within a season. To everyone who bought one, you should consider having the window replaced with something with a yarn in it, as I mentioned, this incorrect sail loading will result in a short lived shape.
So my real point remains, why hasn't anyone used laminate cloth for a wing. With the TWA so far forward of the beam, very similar to a moth or any foiling yacht you're going to be sailing upwind on almost all points of sail. A point as been made that you need to be able to pump a wing to get up and flying. Have people not seen the olympic RSX wind-surfing? RSX sails are only radial sails and yet get quite a pump (almost a trashing) in light and even moderate wind. Another positive would be longer lasting and less likely to be damaged, to keep <4oz spinnaker cloth in fighting form will probably require recuts after 2+ years (Believe me, I've recut plenty of kites to reshape them after 3-4 years. It almost becomes an annual part of service for some.)Perhaps the next move is for big named sail makers to come along and help push design to the next level. Carbon reinforced corners with loading yarns similar to any laminate sail. This is what could and should bring to the future. Perhaps even just using heavier kite cloth and using a flatter shape, this would allow the sail to stretch naturally and keep a lengthier useful life.
Anyhow, hopefully some more experienced wind surfers can give some insight.
Cheers.
Interesting,my wasp has no windows so hopefully it will last a little longer.What about that new cloth they using in kite surfing kites called Allula ? Supposed to be 1/2 weight and more than twice as strong.
From what I gathered, the weight of the wing is really an important caracteristic, so Wing makers are trying to keep things as light as possible. Most WIng makers have decade of Windsurfing and Kiting experience, so they know stiffer materials exist.
Gong(*) for instance choose the best "normal" PVC they could find for windows, but did not think it was worth it weight-wise to go to yarned materials. Instead, they designed the windows so that the PVC panels could be easily changed (no curve at its seams), so replacing old windows could be a simple routine maintenance operation. In France, kitesurfing is quite prevalent, so everybody has a kitesail repair shop close by, and straight seams can easily be done by a non-pro with a sewing machine (I have recut Dacron Windsurfing sails myself as a teenager on my mother machine :-) )
The same went for the struts: Gong made them tough (double layer), but also insured that they could easily be repaired, even by non-professionals, as wings leading edge struts has always a probability to burst if caught in waves or if the rider do not let go in falls (a common beginner mistake)
So yes, wings will get better materials in the future, but with no weight increase.
(*) I am a Gong ambassador, I cite them because I know them best, I just do not know how others do things so I wont generalize. But I would guess this is common practice.
I think we'll be seeing some big improvements over the next few years, I am surprised how good the first versions are actually. I've used both Wasp and Duotone and both work really well. Compare that to the first versions of kites and windsurf sail 
I've already put a hole in my strut (rookie mistake) and can see that happening again once I hit the surf, I wouldn't mind a slight weight penalty for some extra strength there.
Kobo - Your point on Ocean Rodeo's ALUULA frame is a very good one, and I agree its a logical move. However I'm not too sure if its a patented material and could be Cuben Fibre v2. In other words you probably won't be seeing it on any wings until the patent is bought.
Colas - It's great to hear from someone within industry, but you sort of reiterated my points in what needed to change going forward. PVC windows and seams which are easily modified and altered. Really only reinstate the point that products are going out either not fit for purpose or knowingly under-engineered. This isn't exactly something people want to hear when spending for something which arguably isn't hard to make. My point really is perhaps spinnaker cloth isn't the best for wings, it is exactly as you pointed out, something the major brands know how to work with, given their experience in Kite and Windsurfing (That's why we have such pretty graphics on the current generation wings) Perhaps CZ30 from Dimension Polyant or something along those lines could make for excellent wings, this would also completely negate the need for windows too.
We used to use a product called vymar on our windows, a pvc with a laminate of mylar on it to stop stretching out of shape. I thought Naish might be using this. One problem with laminates is they don't handle folding and stuffing into a bag, they need rolling. Naish marketed their first wing as something you could pack into the backpack and paddle back in, not an option if you have to roll like a sailboard sail.
I'm all for having a better mousetrap, no doubt about that. You are right , all the kite companies are leveraging their existing kite know-how and making what is essentially a one strut kite with dihedral and no bridles. And I have no issue with that, I'd do it too if I were them. The one thing you can say about ripstop though, is that it is light, and relatively inexpensive ( oops, that's 2 things).
Regarding using a laminate for the canopy, if you used say the D-A CZ30 material you mention for the canopy , could you get a 4m wing out at around 2kg? That's approx the weight of a 4.2m F One Swing, one of the lightest current wings, a market leader and one that flies beautifully in neutral due largely to its light weight. ( I have a few of them). Or would you have an extremely tear resistant wing that doesn't hover well ? I also speak from experience as the owner of one of the heaviest and most rigid wings ( Slingshot v1), and the lightweight Swing wins by a mile performance wise. Also, would moving from ripstop to a laminate dramatically increase the price ? A 5m Ocean Rodeo Aluula Roam kite currently costs around AUD2500, and that is just swapping the Dacron for Aluula and still using ripstop for the canopy. I wouldn't pay this much for a wing. I do definitely think that Aluula will drive all the kite companies to look at their materials and try to save weight, as long as the price doesn't explode. But I don't see wings as lasting for years, mind you they are a pretty crude and not particularly aerodynamic item so maybe they just have to hold their pressure and tow you around a bit and that will be good enough ?
Toughness is a real issue to. Both times I have been caught in breaking waves the wing has been trashed, broken leading edge burst bladder. I have dropped kites into waves heaps of times with only a few issues. Kites are in the air away from sharp parts of the board and breaking waves if caught inside. Not wings, if you are in the impact zone you are pretty well screwed in decent size waves.
Airsail - I've built furling code sails and spinnaker staysails out of CZ material, and when you remove the cable for storage you can easily flake it up. Not an issue! Regarding flaking V2 Naish, I too agree its a bit disappointing that V2 Naish can no longer be, it's a great storage option.
Mikesids - From what I can gather from the technical specifications of CZGP there is nothing on weight unfortunately. But honestly North Sails could use something like their 3Di Raw, that stuff is amazingly light, we're talking Farr 40 mainsails <10kg. A moth main sail would be closer in price and weight, the closest was the Moth main sails from 2008 when it was still radial sails. Technora ODL04 Mylar/Kevlar cloth sails at 3kg = at 8.45m2 keep in mind this for $1500 AUD. I honestly think the kiting brands are taking people for a bit of a ride with how much they can expect people to pay.
The Swing Wing from F-One Vs. the Slingshot Slingwing (bit of a tongue twister there) honestly is just lighter cloth, plain and simple. And following this logic V2 wings from Slingshot have moved to a lighter Oz cloth. But you're right add Aluula and a Norths 3Di canopy we're probably looking at 1-2kg sail weight (maybe someone should speak to the right people and order one).
Cheers!
The good thing about laminates is that they don't soak up water. A wet kite doesn't fly good and I'm guessing a wing would be the same. A true comparison would be to weigh a wet ripstop against laminate as the wings do spend a lot more time in the water.
Hilly - If you've seen Kai Lenny's new 20 @ 20 on youtube, he blows a Ozone Wasp doing exactly this. I totally agree.
Airsail - A fine example of Spinnakers soaking up tons of water (once blown) -
Select to expand quoteairsail said..
The good thing about laminates is that they don't soak up water. A wet kite doesn't fly good and I'm guessing a wing would be the same. A true comparison would be to weigh a wet ripstop against laminate as the wings do spend a lot more time in the water.
I have never had a dry wing.
Select to expand quoteZsadar said..
Colas - It's great to hear from someone within industry, but you sort of reiterated my points in what needed to change going forward.
I can assure you that Wingmakers are aware of this. (Well the WIngmaker I know anyways)
Mikesids perfectly pointed out that weight and price are really the most important thing.
Wingfoiling is now possible only because wings are light enough to have a kind of autopilot, and the foil reduced the needed power.
Plus I would add that the sport is still young and evolving. The current wings will be obsolete quickly anyways if we look at the early kite or windsurfing sails for instance. Nobody would like to sink a fortune in early wing designs, nor have them as light as possible. A lot of us burnt a lot of money on early foil designs already :-)
A parallel could be drawn with paragliding: paragliding, although ridiculously inefficient compared to deltaplanes or gliders, rose quickly to prominence because it was simple, cheap, easy to transport, safer. Or there is a reason glass bodyboards never took off altough being technically better. Nor rigid windsurfing wingsails. And I have a hunch that high performance, stiff inflatable boards like the Gong Hipe will become much more common than current rigid boards.
So, I would not be surprised that stiffer Wings appear in the future, once makers and riders have enough experience, and some people will be OK to pay more and tackle an heavier wing for more durability. But I do not think we are here yet.
My prototype wing is made from (cheap) laminate. Works very well, although beginning to see delams here and there after alot of heavy abuse- specially on trailing edge.
I think we will end up with a high aspect hang glider type of arrange with very small leading, sealed with some sort of foam for flotation.
The sails will slide on/off, and the sail shape will be determined by the wind strength similar to a sailing boat (flatten or round the sail).
Select to expand quotebigtone667 said..
I think we will end up with a high aspect hang glider type of arrange with very small leading, sealed with some sort of foam for flotation.
The sails will slide on/off, and the sail shape will be determined by the wind strength similar to a sailing boat (flatten or round the sail).
Very optimistic. Being a niche within an niche I think it will continue to be inflatable toys for rich old men and sponsored young guns. So cheap build to make money.
Oh it's going to change dramatically. Windsurfing went from Dacron bed sheets to where we are now; kiting went from 2 line suicide machines to where we are now. The main thing I'm noticing is the wing could definitely benefit from a more aerodynamic leading edge. You can only pinch so far and they hit an air wall. It's going to be a wild ride over the next couple of years.
Select to expand quoteShlogger said..
Oh it's going to change dramatically. Windsurfing went from Dacron bed sheets to where we are now; kiting went from 2 line suicide machines to where we are now. The main thing I'm noticing is the wing could definitely benefit from a more aerodynamic leading edge. You can only pinch so far and they hit an air wall. It's going to be a wild ride over the next couple of years.
It is quite noticeable the difference in upwind capability of the larger fatter leading edge of the 6m WASP compared to the 3m WASP.
This whole S25 PVC business has me wanting to swap my S25 order for a Wasp. I know it's heavier, but I'm wondering if there isn't another reason X-ply isn't used like it is in wave sails.
Select to expand quoteWindbot said..
This whole S25 PVC business has me wanting to swap my S25 order for a Wasp. I know it's heavier, but I'm wondering if there isn't another reason X-ply isn't used like it is in wave sails.
Save $$$ on their end and ensure you need to buy the next seasons one when yours is toast in 6 months. Just get the S25 and have the window replaced!!
Select to expand quotedanish said..
My prototype wing is made from (cheap) laminate. Works very well, although beginning to see delams here and there after alot of heavy abuse- specially on trailing edge.
Where did you get the front bladder from? I honestly would make my own if I knew where to get this part from!Also your leach is probably fluttering too much, consider putting the leach tape on with more tension, or a 1.5mm leach line. Also, you need further reinforcing on the trailing clue. A couple of lines of stickyback probably won't cut it, hence those hideous wrinkles coming from it.
In terms of side tracking here, I spoke to Doyle Sails Lake Mac yesterday and they said whilst its out of the norm, they could make a CZGP sail for the same as a WASP (Something to consider).
I fear that chasing high performance in a surf wing is a but like putting lipstick on a pig. If you shut your eyes it feels good, but it's still a pig.
If you want to go fast then get a kite foil racing kit. Even a freeride kite foiling kit will travel at double your speed and at far higher angles. Even windsurf foil racing kit is slow compared to kite foiling.
The main factors for something like wing foiling is ease of use and versatility, robustness and low price.
For kites, particularly surf/freeride then price is a pretty big factor. It's liberating to know that you can trash your kite and not break the bank. Almost all kites on the market work just fine, especially on a foil.
Given that surf wings are right in amongst the nasty stuff then low price, robustness, repairability and replaceability are key factors.
The other side of low weight and wide inflatable parts is that it's not going to hurt you when if hits you, which it will. Try getting hit in the head with a carbon windsurf mast and see how you like it.
Select to expand quoteGorgo said..Given that surf wings are right in amongst the nasty stuff then low price, robustness, repairability and replaceability are key factors.
Agree with that. Inflatable toy to get me out in the waves and then totally de-power which kites cannot do on waves.
Select to expand quoteZsadar said..
Hi all,
In a previous life I worked as a sail maker for yachts, building sails from maxi yachts to skiffs, I've long since moved on, but my keen eye for design and shape has never left me.
All the current wind wings are made from kite cloth, and it appears generation II is moving to lighter weight cloth. This is pretty logical for some shapes and some wind ranges, but not all. Following this the S2 window from Naish is just garbage, and will stretch and bag out within a season. To everyone who bought one, you should consider having the window replaced with something with a yarn in it, as I mentioned, this incorrect sail loading will result in a short lived shape.
So my real point remains, why hasn't anyone used laminate cloth for a wing. With the TWA so far forward of the beam, very similar to a moth or any foiling yacht you're going to be sailing upwind on almost all points of sail. A point as been made that you need to be able to pump a wing to get up and flying. Have people not seen the olympic RSX wind-surfing? RSX sails are only radial sails and yet get quite a pump (almost a trashing) in light and even moderate wind. Another positive would be longer lasting and less likely to be damaged, to keep
Anyhow, hopefully some more experienced wind surfers can give some insight.
Cheers.
OK, I was holding back on this one. But think I need to have my 2 cents in. (quick rant then done).
I too am/was a sail maker by trade. Worked for North Sails Yachting. Have made sails for everything from Etchells, to Dinghies to 18' skiffs to 49'er's/29er's and then also the other end of the market with Volvo 60's, Sydney to Hobart Maxi's and much much more. I spent a lot of time with the design team and also time running the laser plotter. Towards the end of time there running the main production floor. I find some of what you say a little concerning and possibly a bit dishonest.
Now I work for Windgenuity / Naish Australia. I spend a lot of time talking with designers and giving feedback and helping with development of Naish products. I generally get to have a lot of discussion in relations to materials and suitability to the market with many of the products.
Firstly, your comment. "S25 PVC window is garbage". PVC has been used in windows for ever. It has outlasted many a sailor in windsurfing and has been used in yacht/dinghy sails for a very long time. This cloth will not stretch out and bag like you mention. Yes with adequate force point loaded you can imprint the material, but in general it is amazingly strong, nearly too strong. Adding "yarn" to a window is basically recommending the use of a scrim cloth which is a laminate. This would have a much shorter life in comparison to PVC. Scrim cloths are often used in skiffs and sails that do not get pulled down during sailing as they are a way to make a very light cloth that has the ability to handle the loads needed, they are usually looked after very well and rolled onto PVC tubes as any folding or excessive creasing will result in delaminatation and cracking.
The use of spinnaker cloth is really the only likely option given the way the Wing's are used. Like with Kiteboarding, over the 20 plus years of evolution it has been proven that the Nylon (given there are many different types) is still the best option to withstand flogging in the breeze, free-winging, getting dumped by waves and all the other likely occurrences. Now, while we are on nylon you referred to 4oz spinnaker cloth which is actually more likely to be a Dacron. Most yachts use a 0.75oz spinnaker cloth, sometimes a 0.5oz for light air and running. A high wind Spinnaker cloth is often 1.5oz. They may double up materials on Luffs of asymmetrics or high loading kites/spinnakers, but I can not remember a time every using 4oz cloth on spinnaker other than in clew wads, corners or reinforcing.
Now this all could change with the introduction of a new revolutionary cloth at any time to come, but for now, the technology used (which is very similar to that of Kiteboarding kites) is actually very suitable. Suggesting people replace panels in brand new Wingsurfers is ridiculous and I urge people not to under go such nonsense.
Yes Wing-Surfers will wear over time with use as do all items of use. You will find that most major brands are using adequate materials that are well suited to the task at hand, including Naish with their Quad-Tex nylon. Coming on the forums under a rubbish alias and making un-educated accusations without any legitimate support to your argument is misleading.
my 2 cents
JB
Select to expand quoteJB said..Zsadar said..
Hi all,
In a previous life I worked as a sail maker for yachts, building sails from maxi yachts to skiffs, I've long since moved on, but my keen eye for design and shape has never left me.
All the current wind wings are made from kite cloth, and it appears generation II is moving to lighter weight cloth. This is pretty logical for some shapes and some wind ranges, but not all. Following this the S2 window from Naish is just garbage, and will stretch and bag out within a season. To everyone who bought one, you should consider having the window replaced with something with a yarn in it, as I mentioned, this incorrect sail loading will result in a short lived shape.
So my real point remains, why hasn't anyone used laminate cloth for a wing. With the TWA so far forward of the beam, very similar to a moth or any foiling yacht you're going to be sailing upwind on almost all points of sail. A point as been made that you need to be able to pump a wing to get up and flying. Have people not seen the olympic RSX wind-surfing? RSX sails are only radial sails and yet get quite a pump (almost a trashing) in light and even moderate wind. Another positive would be longer lasting and less likely to be damaged, to keep
Anyhow, hopefully some more experienced wind surfers can give some insight.
Cheers.
OK, I was holding back on this one. But think I need to have my 2 cents in. (quick rant then done).
I too am/was a sail maker by trade. Worked for North Sails Yachting. Have made sails for everything from Etchells, to Dinghies to 18' skiffs to 49'er's/29er's and then also the other end of the market with Volvo 60's, Sydney to Hobart Maxi's and much much more. I spent a lot of time with the design team and also time running the laser plotter. Towards the end of time there running the main production floor. I find some of what you say a little concerning and possibly a bit dishonest.
Now I work for Windgenuity / Naish Australia. I spend a lot of time talking with designers and giving feedback and helping with development of Naish products. I generally get to have a lot of discussion in relations to materials and suitability to the market with many of the products.
Firstly, your comment. "S25 PVC window is garbage". PVC has been used in windows for ever. It has outlasted many a sailor in windsurfing and has been used in yacht/dinghy sails for a very long time. This cloth will not stretch out and bag like you mention. Yes with adequate force point loaded you can imprint the material, but in general it is amazingly strong, nearly too strong. Adding "yarn" to a window is basically recommending the use of a scrim cloth which is a laminate. This would have a much shorter life in comparison to PVC. Scrim cloths are often used in skiffs and sails that do not get pulled down during sailing as they are a way to make a very light cloth that has the ability to handle the loads needed, they are usually looked after very well and rolled onto PVC tubes as any folding or excessive creasing will result in delaminatation and cracking.
The use of spinnaker cloth is really the only likely option given the way the Wing's are used. Like with Kiteboarding, over the 20 plus years of evolution it has been proven that the Nylon (given there are many different types) is still the best option to withstand flogging in the breeze, free-winging, getting dumped by waves and all the other likely occurrences. Now, while we are on nylon you referred to 4oz spinnaker cloth which is actually more likely to be a Dacron. Most yachts use a 0.75oz spinnaker cloth, sometimes a 0.5oz for light air and running. A high wind Spinnaker cloth is often 1.5oz. They may double up materials on Luffs of asymmetrics or high loading kites/spinnakers, but I can not remember a time every using 4oz cloth on spinnaker other than in clew wads, corners or reinforcing.
Now this all could change with the introduction of a new revolutionary cloth at any time to come, but for now, the technology used (which is very similar to that of Kiteboarding kites) is actually very suitable. Suggesting people replace panels in brand new Wingsurfers is ridiculous and I urge people not to under go such nonsense.
Yes Wing-Surfers will wear over time with use as do all items of use. You will find that most major brands are using adequate materials that are well suited to the task at hand, including Naish with their Quad-Tex nylon. Coming on the forums under a rubbish alias and making un-educated accusations without any legitimate support to your argument is misleading.
my 2 cents
JB
Hi JB,
It's unfortunate that you've taken this as a personal attack as it's far from. If anything a great forum to spark conversation and talk about development, future designs and cloth.
As someone from both sides of industry one would think you would remain objective here and even give norths a plug! Regardless, I haven't used an alias, this is far from the truth, actually just my first posts.
"PVC has been used in windows forever. It has outlasted many a sailor in windsurfing and has been used in yacht/dinghy sails for a very long time. This cloth will not stretch out and bag like you mention. Yes with adequate force point loaded you can imprint the material, but in general it is amazingly strong, nearly too strong"
You're right. But just because it's lasted doesn't make it good. That's the point of development, and if it was as good as you reiterated, we'd have sails from WOXI to the full wings from PVC!
The use of spinnaker cloth is really the only likely option given the way the Wing's are used. Like with Kiteboarding, over the 20 plus years of evolution it has been proven that the Nylon (given there are many different types) is still the best option to withstand flogging in the breeze, free-winging, getting dumped by waves and all the other likely occurrences.
I think a few comments above made some great points, in that kitesurfing sails don't touch the water and durability is compromised when touching and interacting the way wings do!
Now, while we are on nylon you referred to 4oz spinnaker cloth which is actually more likely to be a Dacron. Most yachts use a 0.75oz spinnaker cloth, sometimes a 0.5oz for light air and running. A high wind Spinnaker cloth is often 1.5oz. They may double up materials on Luffs of asymmetrics or high loading kites/spinnakers, but I can not remember a time every using 4oz cloth on spinnaker other than in clew wads, corners or reinforcing
I think this is just purely pulling apart a statement for the sake of it denying credibility, I honestly can't remember the exact weights, but ok!
Now this all could change with the introduction of a new revolutionary cloth at any time to come, but for now, the technology used (which is very similar to that of Kiteboarding kites) is actually very suitable.
We never said it was perfect, just the next move might be something different as mentioned by multiple people above.
Suggesting people replace panels in brand new Wingsurfers is ridiculous and I urge people not to under go such nonsense.
People are free to do what they want, I know if I was buying a S25 tomorrow, I'd remove the PVC straight away and add a leach line. You can't honestly say, any sail, yacht or wing is the best the moment it comes from a loft/shop and there is no need to modify it or alter it anyway you want. This is how development is sparked and the next step is made.
As I said before, it's unfortunate to hear such contrarian mindset when you could have provided greater insight. Anyhow, perhaps you have insight into v3 sails you'd like to share?
Select to expand quoteZsadar said..JB said..Zsadar said..
Hi all,
In a previous life I worked as a sail maker for yachts, building sails from maxi yachts to skiffs, I've long since moved on, but my keen eye for design and shape has never left me.
All the current wind wings are made from kite cloth, and it appears generation II is moving to lighter weight cloth. This is pretty logical for some shapes and some wind ranges, but not all. Following this the S2 window from Naish is just garbage, and will stretch and bag out within a season. To everyone who bought one, you should consider having the window replaced with something with a yarn in it, as I mentioned, this incorrect sail loading will result in a short lived shape.
So my real point remains, why hasn't anyone used laminate cloth for a wing. With the TWA so far forward of the beam, very similar to a moth or any foiling yacht you're going to be sailing upwind on almost all points of sail. A point as been made that you need to be able to pump a wing to get up and flying. Have people not seen the olympic RSX wind-surfing? RSX sails are only radial sails and yet get quite a pump (almost a trashing) in light and even moderate wind. Another positive would be longer lasting and less likely to be damaged, to keep
Anyhow, hopefully some more experienced wind surfers can give some insight.
Cheers.
OK, I was holding back on this one. But think I need to have my 2 cents in. (quick rant then done).
I too am/was a sail maker by trade. Worked for North Sails Yachting. Have made sails for everything from Etchells, to Dinghies to 18' skiffs to 49'er's/29er's and then also the other end of the market with Volvo 60's, Sydney to Hobart Maxi's and much much more. I spent a lot of time with the design team and also time running the laser plotter. Towards the end of time there running the main production floor. I find some of what you say a little concerning and possibly a bit dishonest.
Now I work for Windgenuity / Naish Australia. I spend a lot of time talking with designers and giving feedback and helping with development of Naish products. I generally get to have a lot of discussion in relations to materials and suitability to the market with many of the products.
Firstly, your comment. "S25 PVC window is garbage". PVC has been used in windows for ever. It has outlasted many a sailor in windsurfing and has been used in yacht/dinghy sails for a very long time. This cloth will not stretch out and bag like you mention. Yes with adequate force point loaded you can imprint the material, but in general it is amazingly strong, nearly too strong. Adding "yarn" to a window is basically recommending the use of a scrim cloth which is a laminate. This would have a much shorter life in comparison to PVC. Scrim cloths are often used in skiffs and sails that do not get pulled down during sailing as they are a way to make a very light cloth that has the ability to handle the loads needed, they are usually looked after very well and rolled onto PVC tubes as any folding or excessive creasing will result in delaminatation and cracking.
The use of spinnaker cloth is really the only likely option given the way the Wing's are used. Like with Kiteboarding, over the 20 plus years of evolution it has been proven that the Nylon (given there are many different types) is still the best option to withstand flogging in the breeze, free-winging, getting dumped by waves and all the other likely occurrences. Now, while we are on nylon you referred to 4oz spinnaker cloth which is actually more likely to be a Dacron. Most yachts use a 0.75oz spinnaker cloth, sometimes a 0.5oz for light air and running. A high wind Spinnaker cloth is often 1.5oz. They may double up materials on Luffs of asymmetrics or high loading kites/spinnakers, but I can not remember a time every using 4oz cloth on spinnaker other than in clew wads, corners or reinforcing.
Now this all could change with the introduction of a new revolutionary cloth at any time to come, but for now, the technology used (which is very similar to that of Kiteboarding kites) is actually very suitable. Suggesting people replace panels in brand new Wingsurfers is ridiculous and I urge people not to under go such nonsense.
Yes Wing-Surfers will wear over time with use as do all items of use. You will find that most major brands are using adequate materials that are well suited to the task at hand, including Naish with their Quad-Tex nylon. Coming on the forums under a rubbish alias and making un-educated accusations without any legitimate support to your argument is misleading.
my 2 cents
JB
Hi JB,
It's unfortunate that you've taken this as a personal attack as it's far from. If anything a great forum to spark conversation and talk about development, future designs and cloth.
As someone from both sides of industry one would think you would remain objective here and even give norths a plug! Regardless, I haven't used an alias, this is far from the truth, actually just my first posts.
"PVC has been used in windows forever. It has outlasted many a sailor in windsurfing and has been used in yacht/dinghy sails for a very long time. This cloth will not stretch out and bag like you mention. Yes with adequate force point loaded you can imprint the material, but in general it is amazingly strong, nearly too strong"
You're right. But just because it's lasted doesn't make it good. That's the point of development, and if it was as good as you reiterated, we'd have sails from WOXI to the full wings from PVC!
The use of spinnaker cloth is really the only likely option given the way the Wing's are used. Like with Kiteboarding, over the 20 plus years of evolution it has been proven that the Nylon (given there are many different types) is still the best option to withstand flogging in the breeze, free-winging, getting dumped by waves and all the other likely occurrences.
I think a few comments above made some great points, in that kitesurfing sails don't touch the water and durability is compromised when touching and interacting the way wings do!
Now, while we are on nylon you referred to 4oz spinnaker cloth which is actually more likely to be a Dacron. Most yachts use a 0.75oz spinnaker cloth, sometimes a 0.5oz for light air and running. A high wind Spinnaker cloth is often 1.5oz. They may double up materials on Luffs of asymmetrics or high loading kites/spinnakers, but I can not remember a time every using 4oz cloth on spinnaker other than in clew wads, corners or reinforcing
I think this is just purely pulling apart a statement for the sake of it denying credibility, I honestly can't remember the exact weights, but ok!
Now this all could change with the introduction of a new revolutionary cloth at any time to come, but for now, the technology used (which is very similar to that of Kiteboarding kites) is actually very suitable.
We never said it was perfect, just the next move might be something different as mentioned by multiple people above.
Suggesting people replace panels in brand new Wingsurfers is ridiculous and I urge people not to under go such nonsense.
People are free to do what they want, I know if I was buying a S25 tomorrow, I'd remove the PVC straight away and add a leach line. You can't honestly say, any sail, yacht or wing is the best the moment it comes from a loft/shop and there is no need to modify it or alter it anyway you want. This is how development is sparked and the next step is made.
As I said before, it's unfortunate to hear such contrarian mindset when you could have provided greater insight. Anyhow, perhaps you have insight into v3 sails you'd like to share?
Ah the love of the forums. This is why I hesitate to come on.
- Naish (and probably many other brands also) have tested many materials. Scrims and laminates did not last at all.
- Kites do touch the water. Sometimes more than Wings depending on the rider.
- Calling a brand garbage is an attack not a draw up of conversation.
- I think you will find I provide far more and accurate insight than most.
- Denying credibility - Your whole post was driven from a point of "credibility" as a sailmaker with a keen eye making judgements.
- Yes people are free to do what they want. but I am not a fan of people being mislead from incorrect information.
Thank you for your contribution.
Ride safe,
JB
Select to expand quoteGorgo said..
I fear that chasing high performance in a surf wing is a but like putting lipstick on a pig. If you shut your eyes it feels good, but it's still a pig.
If you want to go fast then get a kite foil racing kit. Even a freeride kite foiling kit will travel at double your speed and at far higher angles. Even windsurf foil racing kit is slow compared to kite foiling.
The main factors for something like wing foiling is ease of use and versatility, robustness and low price.
For kites, particularly surf/freeride then price is a pretty big factor. It's liberating to know that you can trash your kite and not break the bank. Almost all kites on the market work just fine, especially on a foil.
Given that surf wings are right in amongst the nasty stuff then low price, robustness, repairability and replaceability are key factors.
The other side of low weight and wide inflatable parts is that it's not going to hurt you when if hits you, which it will. Try getting hit in the head with a carbon windsurf mast and see how you like it.
Gordo mate , Putting lipstick on a pig.....is that somethIng you have done before? do tell haha.
I agree 100% wing foiling after kite foiling sux, It is crap in just about every way except for riding waves and DW.
I keep thinking there must be a better way to solve the kite falling out of the sky problem but atm the wings seem to be it.Maybe that's why Jacko will only use a paddle, If I was as good as him DW I would probably only use a paddle too.
I was having a conversation with someone a while ago that ran a surf shop for years. He said it's hard for the companies and harder for the guys running the shops. He gave up. Very different market here.
As an example everyone wants a 10kg 14ft sup. The companies make them. Then everyone complains they are fragile and the company is crap. There is a fiberglass version that is less than 1kg heavier and 1000 bucks cheaper that is much tougher but no one buys them. Everyone wants a carbon race board.The guy that runs the shop is stuck in the middle with a dinged carbon board he had to refund. And a load of glass boards no one will buy.
Lots of people asked for a window. Everyone wants the lightest possible wing. Yes they could be lighter. Yes the bladder could be smaller but they would be even more expensive and explode the first time someone over pumped it or crashed it. Or the window would delam when people dont wash there kit and scrunch it up and shove it in the bag.
There is always a compromise.
Don't get me wrong I have no sympathy for the big companies.
A good friend that was a boat builder would say people always want light,strong and cheap. He would say choose 2 of those you cant have all 3!
Select to expand quotetarquin1 said..
I was having a conversation with someone a while ago that ran a surf shop for years. He said it's hard for the companies and harder for the guys running the shops. He gave up. Very different market here.
As an example everyone wants a 10kg 14ft sup. The companies make them. Then everyone complains they are fragile and the company is crap. There is a fiberglass version that is less than 1kg heavier and 1000 bucks cheaper that is much tougher but no one buys them. Everyone wants a carbon race board.The guy that runs the shop is stuck in the middle with a dinged carbon board he had to refund. And a load of glass boards no one will buy.
Lots of people asked for a window. Everyone wants the lightest possible wing. Yes they could be lighter. Yes the bladder could be smaller but they would be even more expensive and explode the first time someone over pumped it or crashed it. Or the window would delam when people dont wash there kit and scrunch it up and shove it in the bag.
There is always a compromise.
Don't get me wrong I have no sympathy for the big companies.
A good friend that was a boat builder would say people always want light,strong and cheap. He would say choose 2 of those you cant have all 3!
You couldn't have put it better and I couldn't agree more. Fibreglass Epic ski's are nearly $1000 cheaper, and for <1kg between the aramid/carbon. Arguably its a better example, everyone wants carbon or the lightest possible ski, they pay $5500 and will never paddle it to any potential but "need" the best.
You could probably argue the Slingwing V1 will outlast everything. Super heavy and rigid leach. Is it what people want? nope, that's why V2 is moving to lighter weight.
Out of interest & from what I've gathered the WASP bladder is the biggest and allows you to point highest?
