The coastline gave some security in Europe until Portuguese and Spanish threw caution to the winds in 15th cent. For Cook with no chronometer in 1770 , Lunar Distances were the go but it kept him busy doing sums. Then it's surprising that Greeks from Egypt went across the Indian Ocean in Roman times. And boats reached the Maldives at 900km W from Sri Lanka , with some 'Indonesians' settling in Maldives. There were no 'Indonesian' trading ports along African coast but they also settled in Madagascar around 8th cent. , 3200km W from Maldives. Portuguese texts report that Javanese also sailed to south Africa and in one case , sailed WSW 4000km into the Atlantic , by count of days. Texts say southern Javanese in 1505 said they had reached the "coldest place on earth", an island with 4 hour day. The Atlantic bearing of WSW would be the way to find the S America coast and then Antarctic peninsula.
At the tip of the peninsula the day is 4 hours in midwinter (as at James Ross island) and ships can't readily go further south then. Days north of there are longer than 4 hours so the geography, ice and sun-elevation are uniquely correct. It suggests they went to check the winter-solstice polar night like Cook doing the transit of Venus.
The first Australians at Macquarie island in 1810 found a "ship of ancient design" (per Aust Antarctic Division). I will give web refs later if the Forum allows it. But it seems that much was happening before Cook rolled into Botany Bay and asked for a drink.
Great first post fouled............cripes what was the question............for sure this forum would obviously allow you to give web refs of the 1810 find of the ship of ancient design.
Would expect that most forum persons would be aware that much was happening before Cook rolled in..............
Right up north Leif Erikson and his tribe (including his father and presumably grandfather before him) discovered the New World 500yrs before Columbus...............see here a summary - of course I don't know if it is all factual..............
www.mnc.net/norway/LeifErikson.htm
Anyway the question still stands what was the question, I am probably missing something again.
Thanks Crusoe..........apologies no but as per here it is a fascinating story..............but which seems to be in question.......
www.abc.net.au/4corners/junk-history/8953466
but I am well aware that the Chinese explorers and navigators were very active through the 1300-1500s.......sublime history here;
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_exploration
www.persee.fr/doc/arch_0044-8613_1979_num_18_1_1502
For Cook with no chronometer in 1770 ,
He may not have had a chronometer in 1770, but he certainly had one in 1772
And a beauty is was too.
www.kendallwatches.com/the-world-of-kendall/l-kendall-k1-and-captain-cook
So the question is , if Cook needed the Lunar Distances and then chronometer , was it likely that a place in Antactica could be reached just by star navigation? A uni prof tells me early ships couldn't return to a given position of longitude without a chronometer. Maybe the point is that Cook needed to create accurate maps for UK rather than just finding a coast with seaport for trading. It seems Columbus was way out in latitude , perhaps when he returned he asked fishing boats where's a pub .
I was under the impression pre accurate time pieces, the MO was to sail along a latitude for X amount of days or until land fall then turn north or south to the desired destination a pilot on board that had knowledge of the coast line was also essential
A good read on the difficulties of naviagation in the days before Cook trialled Harrison's remarkable timepieces is Dava Sobel's Longitude.
Select to expand quotefouled said..
So the question is , if Cook needed the Lunar Distances and then chronometer , was it likely that a place in Antactica could be reached just by star navigation? A uni prof tells me early ships couldn't return to a given position of longitude without a chronometer.
Long before Lunar Distance calculations, and even in the present day there is DR. The magnetic compass was introduced a thousand years ago; ideas brought back by sailing crews from China, so they were Arabs. The Vikings had a 'sun traverse board' (I think it's called) which was like pocket sundial, with a small gnomon.
With magnetic compasses you can follow directions, you can record directions, and match that with your speed, allowance for drift, etc. So on the vacant expanse of the sea you can plot how far and in which direction. Then when the Portuguese had the monopoly on trade on the west coast (of Africa) instead of heading into the headwinds, they had to tack out and then back in again, zig-zag fashion. Rather than be too close to dangerous shores, you tack on long tacks, and Lo and Behold they discovered Brazil. With repeated trips the estimates of distances become more accurate.
The Arabs crossed from Oman/Yemen and further south all the way to the Indian cities, Sri Lanka, and then further offshore trips to the Spice Islands, etc. The Vikings crossed open oceans, and the English, Bretons and Galicians crossed to the banks of Newfoundland, from which Columbus learned the Viking stories and descriptions of the land just beyond.
A place in Antarctica could just as easily/painstakingly be recorded by these dead reckoning and using the stars. About 40 years ago Dr David Lewis sailed from Tahiti? to NZ just following the setting stars, then the next setting constellation, etc.
And you can do it too.
The Chinese ships of Zheng He were sent for diplomacy , where each ruler tried to assert their dominance . So it was king to king. Indonesian and Arab ships went for trade usually and it seems Madagascar was settled for some everyday reason , perhaps to supply food for gold-explorers. The midwinter trip to Antarctica was maybe for science about solstice sunless days.
If 'Indonesians' were wrecked at Macquarie island then they were circumnavigating Australia and New Zealand. The north coast was doubtless known from early on and maybe all the landmass was made known to some people such as Javanese kings. With the lack of trade goods the maps probably weren't used by merchant shippers.
I imagine that the hour glass along with the log line would have been employed for ded reckoning
I lived in Greenwich for a couple of years, so on weekends I used to wander down to the Royal Observatory and Maritime Museum and get lost amongst the exhibits, like John Harrison first marine clocks. Incredibly, they had all four iterations (H1 to H4) of Harrison's clocks s and still working, which I found pretty impressive considering the H1 was built in roughly 1735?
You used to wander out of the Royal Observatory just prior to 1pm and find a patch of grass to watch the Time Ball mounted on the roof. At precisely 1pm every day it would reach its zenith then drop, allowing all the ships moored in the lower reaches of the Thames to be able to synchronise their clocks. First used in 1833 and still operating today, the time ball and Harrison's clocks were so instrumental in the successes behind early navigation, it's quite humbling when looking at these pre-that era seafarers achievements and what they managed to do.
Select to expand quoteshaggybaxter said..
I lived in Greenwich for a couple of years, so on weekends I used to wander down to the Royal Observatory and Maritime Museum and get lost amongst the exhibits, like John Harrison first marine clocks. Incredibly, they had all four iterations (H1 to H4) of Harrison's clocks s and still working, which I found pretty impressive considering the H1 was built in roughly 1735?
You used to wander out of the Royal Observatory just prior to 1pm and find a patch of grass to watch the Time Ball mounted on the roof. At precisely 1pm every day it would reach its zenith then drop, allowing all the ships moored in the lower reaches of the Thames to be able to synchronise their clocks. First used in 1833 and still operating today, the time ball and Harrison's clocks were so instrumental in the successes behind early navigation, it's quite humbling when looking at these pre-that era seafarers achievements and what they managed to do.
Hi Shaggy,
If I remember correctly H1 ,2,3 and 4 all work but only H1 ,2 and 3 are seen working as the wheels
(Cogs) are made of wood and replaced with new ones as they wear out over time whereas H4 is all metal .
If one nation (Portugal) has a ruler with ideas like "Navigare necesse est!" , the country's folks are destined to do so.
So are people who have the bugs to go and see what is behind the horizon.
Some must go as they are pushed by others or the circumstances.
The Pacific Islanders, among others, navigate for thousands of years by knowledge handed down from father to son beside building crafts capable of doing so. (Steven Thomas: The last navigator)
Thor Heyerdahl is another modern equivalent of the old mariners, with a bug.
Exploring is in the human genome, space exploration could be paralleled with the the Pacific Islanders the Vikings or the Chineese explorers feats.
The scientists new they were pushing their luck big time but power politics, scumbag politicians pushed the 'mad scientists' who did the job and the experimental rabbits were clever enough to fix problems with ingenuity and duct tape.
There is nothing new under the Sun.
