just saw this come up, looks like it was a nice ish sort of boat
www.goldcoastbulletin.com.au/nocookies?a=A.flavipes
It looks older than a Cav. From the pics, story and video it looks as if they whacked a 60 hp outboard onto a boarding platform. It seems to have fallen half off at some stage, which may have stopped them being able to power clear.
I've defended the use of outboards on offshore boats in the past, but that's in smaller boats with a proper installation, not sticking something a few feet over the back of a big boat on some dodgy frame.
Select to expand quoteChris 249 said..
It looks older than a Cav. From the pics, story and video it looks as if they whacked a 60 hp outboard onto a boarding platform. It seems to have fallen half off at some stage, which may have stopped them being able to power clear.
I've defended the use of outboards on offshore boats in the past, but that's in smaller boats with a proper installation, not sticking something a few feet over the back of a big boat on some dodgy frame.
Agreed Chris, that frame looks very unsuitable, and being so far back would mean the engine would come completely clear of the water in the smallest of chops. It also looks like a short leg from one of the photos.
Hopefully the full story will make things clearer.
There was absolutely no swell in the seaway yesterday, they should have been able to sail in or out without any problems, its a mystery as to why they couldn't sail out of trouble under jib alone unless they were motoring really close to the southern wall when it all went wrong.
The story also says they were towing a tinny. So dodgy outboard setup, towing a dinghy when heading offshore and three people unable to get either and anchor out or the main up and tack out the channel under sail - sounds like very poor seamanship.
Lessons to be learnt - stay well clear of any wave affected lee shore - give yourself at least a few minutes of potential drift time so that engine failure could occur and you can raise sails and get safe.
Can I also put out an extra requirement about bars? Learn to sail your boat well. 20 years ago I was helping a friend who couldn't sail well bring his new to him (but pretty old) Cav 32 up from Sydney and into Swansea. The motor died, which wasn't a worry as there was a nice seabreeze on our starboard quarter as we entered. I coached Colin about holding the boat on course over the bar and as we had just passed Moon Islet the steering broke. There we were, heading towards Moon islet, about 100m off the rocks and with a busted steering chain.
The boat spun around and I hove her too. Thankfully the Cav with its nice classic underwater shape hove to well with a backed genoa and we forereached while I worked out what to do. Radio, no good as we were quite close to the island and bombora, too little time. The boat forereached at about 60 degrees to the wind at 1 knot with main tight on and genoa backed but eased. So we sailed towards the island. Then to tack we put the genoa to leeward (like normal but eased off somewhat) and she quickly tacked herself. Off we went on starboard, away from danger. We slowly sailed back out to sea, tacking her out the bar, found the emergency tiller (about 300mm long), contacted the VMR to ask for a tow AFTER the bar (I didn't want to be towed over the bar) and sailed in with genoa only to reduce weather helm. Colin on one side, me on the other of the short emergency tiller -me talking - "You pull, you push" everytime a wave passed us. No worries getting in second time. Colin was happy I was there because he didn't know what he could have done. I was happy because all those times getting 420 and Tasar dinghies to heave to between races had paid off and protected his new (to him) boat.
I was glad the same thing didn't happen on a Hanse or something with a big bum. I was once on a 31ft IOR racer with a big bum that lost a rudder and she was terrible to steer compared to the old fashioned Cav.
Bad things can happen on bars. Quick thinking, good seamanship and a large safety margin all work in your favour. But never treat them with anything but respect. We are only minutes, or even seconds, away from wrecking our boats when on a bar.
cheers
Phil
I'd say they were lucky to crash into the seaway wall can you imagine how bad it could have been if they'd actually made it out into the ocean.
Select to expand quoteKankama said..
The story also says they were towing a tinny. So dodgy outboard setup, towing a dinghy when heading offshore and three people unable to get either and anchor out or the main up and tack out the channel under sail - sounds like very poor seamanship.
Lessons to be learnt - stay well clear of any wave affected lee shore - give yourself at least a few minutes of potential drift time so that engine failure could occur and you can raise sails and get safe.
Can I also put out an extra requirement about bars? Learn to sail your boat well. 20 years ago I was helping a friend who couldn't sail well bring his new to him (but pretty old) Cav 32 up from Sydney and into Swansea. The motor died, which wasn't a worry as there was a nice seabreeze on our starboard quarter as we entered. I coached Colin about holding the boat on course over the bar and as we had just passed Moon Islet the steering broke. There we were, heading towards Moon islet, about 100m off the rocks and with a busted steering chain.
The boat spun around and I hove her too. Thankfully the Cav with its nice classic underwater shape hove to well with a backed genoa and we forereached while I worked out what to do. Radio, no good as we were quite close to the island and bombora, too little time. The boat forereached at about 60 degrees to the wind at 1 knot with main tight on and genoa backed but eased. So we sailed towards the island. Then to tack we put the genoa to leeward (like normal but eased off somewhat) and she quickly tacked herself. Off we went on starboard, away from danger. We slowly sailed back out to sea, tacking her out the bar, found the emergency tiller (about 300mm long), contacted the VMR to ask for a tow AFTER the bar (I didn't want to be towed over the bar) and sailed in with genoa only to reduce weather helm. Colin on one side, me on the other of the short emergency tiller -me talking - "You pull, you push" everytime a wave passed us. No worries getting in second time. Colin was happy I was there because he didn't know what he could have done. I was happy because all those times getting 420 and Tasar dinghies to heave to between races had paid off and protected his new (to him) boat.
I was glad the same thing didn't happen on a Hanse or something with a big bum. I was once on a 31ft IOR racer with a big bum that lost a rudder and she was terrible to steer compared to the old fashioned Cav.
Bad things can happen on bars. Quick thinking, good seamanship and a large safety margin all work in your favour. But never treat them with anything but respect. We are only minutes, or even seconds, away from wrecking our boats when on a bar.
cheers
Phil
My Hanse heaves to no problems. I have a cleat adjacent to each end of the self tacking jib so the jib traveler can be locked to windward.
Select to expand quoteKankama said..
The story also says they were towing a tinny. So dodgy outboard setup, towing a dinghy when heading offshore and three people unable to get either and anchor out or the main up and tack out the channel under sail - sounds like very poor seamanship.
Lessons to be learnt - stay well clear of any wave affected lee shore - give yourself at least a few minutes of potential drift time so that engine failure could occur and you can raise sails and get safe.
Can I also put out an extra requirement about bars? Learn to sail your boat well. 20 years ago I was helping a friend who couldn't sail well bring his new to him (but pretty old) Cav 32 up from Sydney and into Swansea. The motor died, which wasn't a worry as there was a nice seabreeze on our starboard quarter as we entered. I coached Colin about holding the boat on course over the bar and as we had just passed Moon Islet the steering broke. There we were, heading towards Moon islet, about 100m off the rocks and with a busted steering chain.
The boat spun around and I hove her too. Thankfully the Cav with its nice classic underwater shape hove to well with a backed genoa and we forereached while I worked out what to do. Radio, no good as we were quite close to the island and bombora, too little time. The boat forereached at about 60 degrees to the wind at 1 knot with main tight on and genoa backed but eased. So we sailed towards the island. Then to tack we put the genoa to leeward (like normal but eased off somewhat) and she quickly tacked herself. Off we went on starboard, away from danger. We slowly sailed back out to sea, tacking her out the bar, found the emergency tiller (about 300mm long), contacted the VMR to ask for a tow AFTER the bar (I didn't want to be towed over the bar) and sailed in with genoa only to reduce weather helm. Colin on one side, me on the other of the short emergency tiller -me talking - "You pull, you push" everytime a wave passed us. No worries getting in second time. Colin was happy I was there because he didn't know what he could have done. I was happy because all those times getting 420 and Tasar dinghies to heave to between races had paid off and protected his new (to him) boat.
I was glad the same thing didn't happen on a Hanse or something with a big bum. I was once on a 31ft IOR racer with a big bum that lost a rudder and she was terrible to steer compared to the old fashioned Cav.
Bad things can happen on bars. Quick thinking, good seamanship and a large safety margin all work in your favour. But never treat them with anything but respect. We are only minutes, or even seconds, away from wrecking our boats when on a bar.
cheers
Phil
My Hanse heaves to no problems. I have a cleat adjacent to each end of the self tacking jib so the jib traveler can be locked to windward.
Select to expand quoteBruski068 said..
I'd say they were lucky to crash into the seaway wall can you imagine how bad it could have been if they'd actually made it out into the ocean.
Exactly! The one advantage of running aground is the boat wont sink. At least sink fast.
Gday Jode
I get that boats with big bum can heave to well - it was a comment on the directional stability of the non deadrise hull form without a usable rudder. Although it did happen a long while ago, keeping the big bum IOR hull form going in a straight line without a rudder was really hard and only a few of the crew could keep her to within 45 degrees of the course required to get to port. A few racers have lost rudders and had the devil of a time getting back home.
If I was to sail a modern flat and big bum bottom mono far away from land I would really like a spare rudder (maybe just a piece of ply in a cupboard) and pintles permanently on the transom. If I was on an S and S 34 I don't think it would be such an issue. Then again I have been on two boats that have lost their steering in tricky situations, so it is important for me to have backup.
Tank tests show that boats with a length to beam ratio of less than 8 have no directional stability. So virtually all monos are inherently directionally unstable and all multis are stable. monos will hold course under some trim conditions when the interaction of main and headsail provide self steering, but multis can be made to hold course for long periods with some rudder set even with unbalanced sails.
