I thought of posting a link to ORCV's internal inquirey into the sinking of The Beneteau 50 yacht, Inception, with a crew of 6 during the 2012 Ocean Racing Club of Victoria's Melbourne to Port Fairy Yacht Race.
There are some very informative aspects to the function and limitation of EPIRB Vs PLB's and other fascinating insights including the lack of effective resources on the Police Helicopter and that while the Police where tasked with co ordination, their comms equipment was ineffective and Mobile phones and the ORCV and the nearest yacht on hand, Trybooking where in the end best situated to rescue the crew who had lost the liferaft and where in the water!
Here is the report:
www.sailing.org.au/sport-services/safety/major-incident-reports/port-fairy/
Thanks for that. Some interesting points there. Disappointing to hear of the lack of night winching helos. Perhaps they should have called on the navy that have aviators that work 24 hours a day. Search fixed wing aircraft with a minimum search altitude of 2500 feet! When we used to operate in Bass Straight in Grumman Trackers [365 days a year] we were restricted to 100 feet in the day and 300 feet at night.
The yacht losing all power is something we should spend more time on. Setting up mobile AIS stations is not much use if the yacht can not transmit. The point with the lifejackets having spray hoods is something that comes up all the time in overseas reports. It's time manufacturers started making jackets with a decent vests that don't need leg straps as well. Easy to do and add only a few dollars.
The crews actions were pretty well spot on with what they had left.
Select to expand quoteRamona said..
Thanks for that. Some interesting points there. Disappointing to hear of the lack of night winching helos. Perhaps they should have called on the navy that have aviators that work 24 hours a day. Search fixed wing aircraft with a minimum search altitude of 2500 feet! When we used to operate in Bass Straight in Grumman Trackers [365 days a year] we were restricted to 100 feet in the day and 300 feet at night.
The yacht losing all power is something we should spend more time on. Setting up mobile AIS stations is not much use if the yacht can not transmit. The point with the lifejackets having spray hoods is something that comes up all the time in overseas reports. It's time manufacturers started making jackets with a decent vests that don't need leg straps as well. Easy to do and add only a few dollars.
The crews actions were pretty well spot on with what they had left.
Ramona,
100ft over water? That deserves serious respect. I didn't finish my PPL but I did enough to know how hard it is to maintain height over water. If pay was inline with the risk, you should be a millionaire.
Edit: Thanks Guitz, interesting reading.
Select to expand quoteRamona said..
Thanks for that. Some interesting points there. Disappointing to hear of the lack of night winching helos. Perhaps they should have called on the navy that have aviators that work 24 hours a day. Search fixed wing aircraft with a minimum search altitude of 2500 feet! When we used to operate in Bass Straight in Grumman Trackers [365 days a year] we were restricted to 100 feet in the day and 300 feet at night.
The yacht losing all power is something we should spend more time on. Setting up mobile AIS stations is not much use if the yacht can not transmit. The point with the lifejackets having spray hoods is something that comes up all the time in overseas reports. It's time manufacturers started making jackets with a decent vests that don't need leg straps as well. Easy to do and add only a few dollars.
The crews actions were pretty well spot on with what they had left.
Very interesting to hear about the 365 days a year presence of the Grumman Trackers in Bass Strait. I had no Idea. It's a wonder they didnt pick something up when Fred Valentich vanished!
Re losing power when the batteries are flooded, I have a small 12v motorbike battery mounted high as an emergency back up.
Thanks Guitz, highly interesting and relevant stuff. The feedback on the EPIRB not pinging is a little scary as my understanding of this technology was that it is reasonably bullet proof.
Defiantly will look at getting PLB for any decent length offshore sails.
Select to expand quoteGuitz said..Ramona said..
Thanks for that. Some interesting points there. Disappointing to hear of the lack of night winching helos. Perhaps they should have called on the navy that have aviators that work 24 hours a day. Search fixed wing aircraft with a minimum search altitude of 2500 feet! When we used to operate in Bass Straight in Grumman Trackers [365 days a year] we were restricted to 100 feet in the day and 300 feet at night.
The yacht losing all power is something we should spend more time on. Setting up mobile AIS stations is not much use if the yacht can not transmit. The point with the lifejackets having spray hoods is something that comes up all the time in overseas reports. It's time manufacturers started making jackets with a decent vests that don't need leg straps as well. Easy to do and add only a few dollars.
The crews actions were pretty well spot on with what they had left.
Very interesting to hear about the 365 days a year presence of the Grumman Trackers in Bass Strait. I had no Idea. It's a wonder they didnt pick something up when Fred Valentich vanished!
Re losing power when the batteries are flooded, I have a small 12v motorbike battery mounted high as an emergency back up.
Good idea with the bike battery Guitz. I like that one, thanks.
Select to expand quoteRamona said..
Thanks for that. Some interesting points there. Disappointing to hear of the lack of night winching helos. Perhaps they should have called on the navy that have aviators that work 24 hours a day. Search fixed wing aircraft with a minimum search altitude of 2500 feet! When we used to operate in Bass Straight in Grumman Trackers [365 days a year] we were restricted to 100 feet in the day and 300 feet at night.
The yacht losing all power is something we should spend more time on. Setting up mobile AIS stations is not much use if the yacht can not transmit. The point with the lifejackets having spray hoods is something that comes up all the time in overseas reports. It's time manufacturers started making jackets with a decent vests that don't need leg straps as well. Easy to do and add only a few dollars.
The crews actions were pretty well spot on with what they had left.
I don't expect Nowra has a SAR helo and crew on call any anymore. A pity if they don't, it was a worthwhile role and being on call was excellent for discipline and training.
I don't know why the fixed wing cab was restricted to 2500ft at night if they were visual over water. As Ramona says we had a day limit of 100ft and at night 300ft, in a 1950s designed aircraft with no GPS, chart plotters etc. All flying at these altitudes was hands on manual, no auto pilot. We did have the benefit that we did it all the time so it was 2nd nature.
I am a bit paranoid about water ingress. If MB had any indication she was taking on water, even a trickle, I wouldn't let up until I'd found the source. Once they determined the boat was sinking I agree that they largely did well. Tightly adjusted leg straps is something to think about. Most of the people I sail with have them loosely adjusted thinking they will tighten them if needed. If you forget or there isn't the time!!!
It's alright, there was only a consistent Gale warning for over 24hrs before the race start with consecutive cold fronts followed by a strong high that would likely intensify the fronts.
Night racing along a lee shore in a Gale? What could possibly go wrong?
we talked about that rescue when I did the survival at sea course . The yacht that rescued them did an amazing job setting a course to search . But from memory, listening to the account of what happened , I couldn't help but think there was a lot of luck involved in finding everyone as well.
Select to expand quoteSandS said..
we talked about that rescue when I did the survival at sea course . The yacht that rescued them did an amazing job setting a course to search . But from memory, listening to the account of what happened , I couldn't help but think there was a lot of luck involved in finding everyone as well.
I have read somewhere on the net, a more detailed account of how the skipper of Trybooking found them. He is an airline pilot and he was very calculated in how he responded to the info he had and set about developing, in the moment, a strategy that gave the best chance of finding them. Still I agree some luck was involved as with the best strategy you could still easily miss a row of 6 or so small lights in a heaving ocean of white capped waves in the pitch black rainy conditions!
yes an amazing rescue ! and all credit to the skipper and crew of the vessels involved
Select to expand quoteGuitz said..SandS said..
we talked about that rescue when I did the survival at sea course . The yacht that rescued them did an amazing job setting a course to search . But from memory, listening to the account of what happened , I couldn't help but think there was a lot of luck involved in finding everyone as well.
I have read somewhere on the net, a more detailed account of how the skipper of Trybooking found them. He is an airline pilot and he was very calculated in how he responded to the info he had and set about developing, in the moment, a strategy that gave the best chance of finding them. Still I agree some luck was involved as with the best strategy you could still easily miss a row of 6 or so small lights in a heaving ocean of white capped waves in the pitch black rainy conditions!
www.mysailing.com.au/news/report-on-textbook-rescue-of-six-crew-after-yacht-sinks
Guitz, thanks for the interesting thread.
Two things I'd gleaned from this, and I would like to offer up for debate.
A) AIS SART vs PLB's.
We all know PLB's use the satellite system just like an EPIRB to trigger an alert. When Andy did his solo effort, this is the most logical way for SAR to be alerted if Andy was washed overboard. However, if yachts are nearby, such as in a yacht race, the other yachts, or indeed you're own, rely on the Joint Rescue Co-ordination Centre in Canberra providing steering fixes to the GPS position of the PLB. This may be problematic in a rapid response if comms are difficult or missed, keeping in mind the speed in which a Mob can be located and recovered from the water can have a big impact on the rescue outcome.
An AIS SART, which is one of those dinky little personal AIS transmitters, would be very effective in providing a steering fix for boats fitted with AIS in the immediate area, dramatically improving response times. The negative, again using Andy's case, is if you are not within AIS range of any other shipping this capability would amount to diddly squat.
A further aside to this, whilst most AIS SART's have improved over time, (eg: newer units transmit a 972 designation that shows up as a personal device, the position indicator I think shows up as a red circle with a cross through it ), there is no requirement for older AIS receivers to be upgraded with these innovations. So, an older AIS receiver may still show you as a ship, and not provide any indication to the fleet sailing past of any emergency!
B) PLB Position updates.
The report mentions that certain PLB's only transmit a position fix every 30 mins, others more often, and this is compliant to the rules. It is hence logical that we should be familiar with our PLB's specifics in regards to transmission times.
I have a ResQlink+ PLB, and nowhere can I find the polling time of position fixes in either the user manual or the data sheet. I didn't know that PLB's had such a potentially long delay between fixes. I definitely would like to know what my unit is capable of before I end up in the water, might be making a phone call tomorrow to find out methinks.
Thanks again Guitz, I learned another new thing today, and an important one at that. Am I wrong in my beliefs above?
Cheers.
Select to expand quoteshaggybaxter said..
Guitz, thanks for the interesting thread.
Two things I'd gleaned from this, and I would like to offer up for debate.
A) AIS SART vs PLB's.
We all know PLB's use the satellite system just like an EPIRB to trigger an alert. When Andy did his solo effort, this is the most logical way for SAR to be alerted if Andy was washed overboard. However, if yachts are nearby, such as in a yacht race, the other yachts, or indeed you're own, rely on the Joint Rescue Co-ordination Centre in Canberra providing steering fixes to the GPS position of the PLB. This may be problematic in a rapid response if comms are difficult or missed, keeping in mind the speed in which a Mob can be located and recovered from the water can have a big impact on the rescue outcome.
An AIS SART, which is one of those dinky little personal AIS transmitters, would be very effective in providing a steering fix for boats fitted with AIS in the immediate area, dramatically improving response times. The negative, again using Andy's case, is if you are not within AIS range of any other shipping this capability would amount to diddly squat.
A further aside to this, whilst most AIS SART's have improved over time, (eg: newer units transmit a 972 designation that shows up as a personal device, the position indicator I think shows up as a red circle with a cross through it ), there is no requirement for older AIS receivers to be upgraded with these innovations. So, an older AIS receiver may still show you as a ship, and not provide any indication to the fleet sailing past of any emergency!
B) PLB Position updates.
The report mentions that certain PLB's only transmit a position fix every 30 mins, others more often, and this is compliant to the rules. It is hence logical that we should be familiar with our PLB's specifics in regards to transmission times.
I have a ResQlink+ PLB, and nowhere can I find the polling time of position fixes in either the user manual or the data sheet. I didn't know that PLB's had such a potentially long delay between fixes. I definitely would like to know what my unit is capable of before I end up in the water, might be making a phone call tomorrow to find out methinks.
Thanks again Guitz, I learned another new thing today, and an important one at that. Am I wrong in my beliefs above?
Cheers.
Shaggy re the polling delay. I design that kind of thing all the time. Problem is the battery life. If the polling interval was shorter the batteries would die faster. Halving the polling interval doubles the battery current which halves its total on air time. ie is it better one beep per 5 minutes for 24 hours (288 beeps) or 1 beep per minute for 288 minutes. (still 288 beeps). Depends how fast you would expect rescue to come and how far you expect to drift between the intervals. Its a sharp double edged sword 
To me the survivors connecting themselves together and having the ships EPIRB connected to them by the tether is pretty much all you can do. Personal beacons or AIS may be handy but the helicopter rescue is the most likely outcome. The response time if you have accidentally activated your EPIRB is impressive [I have not but a mate has]!
The downside of the report is the lifejackets. Having jackets that allow the body to slip down if the crutch straps are not tight enough is a design fault. In overseas accidents there have been numerous cases where the body slipped out of the jacket completely and other cases where the people just drowned wearing a jacket. Having a spray hood also increases your chance of survival.
My inflatable jacket does not need crutch straps but has clips to use them if required. Military lifejackets have slightly larger flotation to support weapons etc but the important difference is the vest itself which is mostly mesh and has armpits that prevent the jacket rising up. They attach at the waist or above the waist really and this is part of the lifting point. Properly adjusted the jacket will support you easily and not rise up.
I'm the only one that wears my jacket and I have been meaning to sew the tags into a permanent position, keeping the centre strap central and see if I can't sew up a more complete vest with armpits!
One point i thought was interesting was the advantage of activating the PLB before entering the water and while floating and often covered with the splash of the sea, the signal wasn't picked up where as the EPIRP was better and designed to still get signal through while floating.
Also worth noting I think, is that I don't think of my inflatable PFD so much as a life jacket. I have always thought their design was to facilitate comfort while wearing all the time as a safety device for MOB situations. I have a full sleeveless vest type lifejacket with a high collar for myself and each crew for abandon ship type emergencies. I thought this was common practice and seems common sense. It's better at helping the body retain heat and can be fitted over my Musto Ocean jacket, belted up tight with the side straps and crutch strap. My only thought is the possible advantage of the May West type in keeping you on your back but it would have to be well fitted. After reading the report I'm going to don my lifejacket over my Musto and go for a wade off the beach fully clothed and see how it performs in practice. Spectators will be bemused I'm sure, but it will be a worthwhile trial run.
We recently did the same thing in testing our life jackets, and for the heavier guys a 150 pfd didn't cut the mustard, you simply float too low in the water. I'm only 74kgs and a 150 worked fine. A mate that weighs in at 90+ had his chin in the water, I'd hate to have that happen in a real life situation.
A 275 was much more suited to giving him the proper clearance.
Im upgrading mine to a spray hood version, the difference in comfort in the water is surprising.
On receive the GPS receive power should be down at 0.1 - 0.2W maybe. On transmit 406MHz EPIRBs transmit 5W of RF power That means maybe 10W DC being taken from battery. Depends how good the design is. To visualize, if its got say 2 D size lithium batteries inside totaling 7V thats way over 1A, could be 1.5A. Its a lot! Could be fixed with bigger batteries but thats probably a marketing issue. Everyone wants small.
Thanks Freeradical,
That's exactly what I was looking for.
I think I like the look of your KTI better, 30 mins seems like a long time even though I get the 121mhz frequency acts as a homing beacon for any SAR assets nearby.
Thanks also to Trek, this is a subject I find very interesting. As a skipper and owner, I really believe this is one subject we're responsible for the most if we take people out.
Over a few beers at the club, the subject of DSC came up, it's surprising how many guys hadn't ever used it, even though their sets were DSC capable.
Never ending learning curve, this hobby of ours.
Stitched up the straps on my inflatable jacket this morning. Hard to put in armpits though as the jacket does up on the side behind the stole. Military jackets do up at the front so donning them is just like putting on an ordinary jacket. I will run a diagonal down each side from the nape of the neck to each bottom corner and see how that goes. Like most people I wear the inflatable jacket because I have to to cross the bar and row out to my yacht. I usually leave it on all day but If I was concerned I have an older sailing vest I have converted with helo type winching lift straps for securing a life line and a loop for my two way radio and attachment for the ships Epirb. I don't like the idea of depending on an inflatable. It's down in my sewing/sail room at the moment and I think a spray hood might be a good addition.
I suggest you look at KRU inflatable jackets, they are worn like a waistcoat so don't slip off easily, they have a crutch strap and a pocket for the PLB and a hood and a built in harness. Can't remember what I paid for mine a few years ago, but I bought it from Gerry Fitzgerald. ( Gerry Fitzgerald [gerry@marinetraining.com.au] ).
