Hi all
This is a MAIB bulletin regarding tethers that is worth reading
assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a535cfe40f0b648c72358ff/SB1_2018.pdf
Regards Don
Select to expand quoteDonk107 said..
Hi all
This is a MAIB bulletin regarding tethers that is worth reading
assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a535cfe40f0b648c72358ff/SB1_2018.pdf
Regards Don
Robin Knox Johnston commented on this in one of the Pommie yachting magazines. He reckons that any of the clips would have failed in that situation. None of them can handle side loadings like that that occurred in that accident. The clips only work correctly with direct pulls at full loads.
Select to expand quoteRamona said..Donk107 said..
Hi all
This is a MAIB bulletin regarding tethers that is worth reading
assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a535cfe40f0b648c72358ff/SB1_2018.pdf
Regards Don
Robin Knox Johnston commented on this in one of the Pommie yachting magazines. He reckons that any of the clips would have failed in that situation. None of them can handle side loadings like that that occurred in that accident. The clips only work correctly with direct pulls at full loads.
That doesn't sound right to me. A tether should work 100% of the time regardless of the load direction.
If I knew my tether would have failed under side loading I would have ditched the clip and shackled on to the Jacklines. FFS the tether should be the most reliable and over engineered piece of equipment on the boat. The findings were BS the clips should be able to withstand side loading. Saying they should be setup to avoid any side loading is ridiculous. Make fffing clips stronger!!!!
Select to expand quoteRamona said..
Robin Knox Johnston commented on....
RKJ has a great story in his original RTW journey book about how he used to dive from the bowsprit of Suhaili and swim as fast as he could to race the boat while sailing. Given that he tells the tale, one presumes he always won. But there's no mention of clips, harnesses or jackstays on that voyage; I guess he was just careful and the boat was well set up with bulwarks etc.
What Andy said.
Whilst we're on the subject, a bit more idiotic tether trivia...d you know if you're racing in any Sailing Australia sanctioned race (read nearly all), you are only allowed to use a tether that is fitted with all snap hooks.
Stupidly, having a quick release shackle for where the tether attaches to your harness (see pic below) is not allowed. 
It's nuts, if you're getting dragged, you have near zero chance of getting a hook undone off your harness, a quick release shackle is so much more logical it's laughable. I have 10 tethers on board to cover for the crew when racing, and I have to buy the snap hook style ends just to be compliant, even though that is potentially endangering the crew.
Sorry, idiot regulation rant over, back to normal programming!
Select to expand quoteshaggybaxter said..
What Andy said.
Whilst we're on the subject, a bit more idiotic tether trivia...d you know if you're racing in any Sailing Australia sanctioned race (read nearly all), you are only allowed to use a tether that is fitted with all snap hooks.
Stupidly, having a quick release shackle for where the tether attaches to your harness (see pic below) is not allowed.
It's nuts, if you're getting dragged, you have near zero chance of getting a hook undone off your harness, a quick release shackle is so much more logical it's laughable. I have 10 tethers on board to cover for the crew when racing, and I have to buy the snap hook style ends just to be compliant, even though that is potentially endangering the crew.
Sorry, idiot regulation rant over, back to normal programming!
Dunno, SB. YA had been fighting with Standards Australia for years to allow hooks on the inner end of harnesses, prior to the loss of Waikikamukau. Because of SA's attitude, when the Moo Cow started to sink the crew on deck, who were all clipped on, had to get out of their harnesses or reach the clips at the outer end of the line. At least one of them managed to get enough slack to get out of the chest harness itself. I can't recall how the other got unclipped. One crew member never got unclipped and went down with the boat.
The lesson from that (and we got it very early since some of our crew went to see their mate, the sole survivor, in hospital after we were all told to abandon the search as conditions worsened) is that you CAN normally get enough slack for a brief time if the boat is sinking or inverted.
We all know times when snap shackles have come undone. Surely the risk of a snap coming undone, especially if you have been dragged across a deck and lifelines with all the potential snags that means, is greater than the risk of not being able to unclip.
One other point that came out of the '98 Sydney-Hobart inquest was that in some ways, the ultimate strength of a harness is irrelevant. The force required to snap a harness can cause such severe internal injuries that the wearer is not going to survive anyway. I was there when a doctor was giving testimony and I believe he said something to the effect that one of those who died after going overboard and breaking a harness would have had to have been in a fully equipped emergency operating room without 10-15 minutes to have had a chance of surviving after suffering such crushing forces on the abdomen.
Select to expand quoteChris 249 said..shaggybaxter said..
What Andy said.
Whilst we're on the subject, a bit more idiotic tether trivia...d you know if you're racing in any Sailing Australia sanctioned race (read nearly all), you are only allowed to use a tether that is fitted with all snap hooks.
Stupidly, having a quick release shackle for where the tether attaches to your harness (see pic below) is not allowed.
It's nuts, if you're getting dragged, you have near zero chance of getting a hook undone off your harness, a quick release shackle is so much more logical it's laughable. I have 10 tethers on board to cover for the crew when racing, and I have to buy the snap hook style ends just to be compliant, even though that is potentially endangering the crew.
Sorry, idiot regulation rant over, back to normal programming!
Dunno, SB. YA had been fighting with Standards Australia for years to allow hooks on the inner end of harnesses, prior to the loss of Waikikamukau. Because of SA's attitude, when the Moo Cow started to sink the crew on deck, who were all clipped on, had to get out of their harnesses or reach the clips at the outer end of the line. At least one of them managed to get enough slack to get out of the chest harness itself. I can't recall how the other got unclipped. One crew member never got unclipped and went down with the boat.
The lesson from that (and we got it very early since some of our crew went to see their mate, the sole survivor, in hospital after we were all told to abandon the search as conditions worsened) is that you CAN normally get enough slack for a brief time if the boat is sinking or inverted.
We all know times when snap shackles have come undone. Surely the risk of a snap coming undone, especially if you have been dragged across a deck and lifelines with all the potential snags that means, is greater than the risk of not being able to unclip.
One other point that came out of the '98 Sydney-Hobart inquest was that in some ways, the ultimate strength of a harness is irrelevant. The force required to snap a harness can cause such severe internal injuries that the wearer is not going to survive anyway. I was there when a doctor was giving testimony and I believe he said something to the effect that one of those who died after going overboard and breaking a harness would have had to have been in a fully equipped emergency operating room without 10-15 minutes to have had a chance of surviving after suffering such crushing forces on the abdomen.
Thx Chris,
That was all really interesting. Its a good topic this, lots to learn and beneficial to us all.
Good points Chris It's obvious you know more than me about this. But it seems to me when you look at the pics of the bent hook it seems obvious that it's designed for a straight pull and it doesn't seem that much force was needed to bend the flat stainless laterally.
Shaggy I'm with you on the quick release why can't someone invent something more reliable than a snapshackle that will release under pressure, it can't be that hard
All our tethers are 3 hooks, i always have 2 hooks on the jacklines so you can get around stuff without being completely unhooked. Wonder what the clippers used? Be pretty unlikely to have 2 hooks get caught and both twist open?
A proper tether cutter or open blade knife on lanyard goes hand in hand with tether use.
Select to expand quoteandy59 said..
That doesn't sound right to me. A tether should work 100% of the time regardless of the load direction.
If I knew my tether would have failed under side loading I would have ditched the clip and shackled on to the Jacklines. FFS the tether should be the most reliable and over engineered piece of equipment on the boat. The findings were BS the clips should be able to withstand side loading. Saying they should be setup to avoid any side loading is ridiculous. Make fffing clips stronger!!!!
I tend to believe Robin Knox Johnston's assessment. If you jam any of the top line clips by the lower third and pull upwards they will fail at something like 20% of their rating. These clipper racers are carrying paid "passengers" and all their stuff is top gear. I'm sure their insurance bill is astronomical!
Jam the hook of one of those Wichard clips in a vice and pull sideways with a short bit of rope. I reckon 50 lbs will do it!
Select to expand quoteFreeRadical said..
All our tethers are 3 hooks, i always have 2 hooks on the jacklines so you can get around stuff without being completely unhooked. Wonder what the clippers used? Be pretty unlikely to have 2 hooks get caught and both twist open?
A proper tether cutter or open blade knife on lanyard goes hand in hand with tether use.
there's your answer to the problem ....
It seems the Clipper yachts have wrapped rope around the cleats to prevent further mishaps with clips.
Select to expand quoteRamona said..
It seems the Clipper yachts have wrapped rope around the cleats to prevent further mishaps with clips.
Well that will probably stop that particular instance happening again. Its almost like the tether should come with a warning like "this tether will fail under side loading." it just seems like a negligence case waiting to happen to me.
Free Radical its seems pointless having a short and long tether if you have to be hooked on to the short one all the time.
Why not make hooks that can withstand 500kg side loading?? Would they be too large or heavy??
Edit: a webbing or spectra failsafe loop would do it.
Select to expand quoteandy59 said..Ramona said..
It seems the Clipper yachts have wrapped rope around the cleats to prevent further mishaps with clips.
Well that will probably stop that particular instance happening again. Its almost like the tether should come with a warning like "this tether will fail under side loading." it just seems like a negligence case waiting to happen to me.
Free Radical its seems pointless having a short and long tether if you have to be hooked on to the short one all the time.
Why not make hooks that can withstand 500kg side loading?? Would they be too large or heavy??
Edit: a webbing or spectra failsafe loop would do it.
Should be a very easy task to engineer a clip to withstand a 500kg side force, for example a standard ultra light weight alloy non locking rock climbing carabiner can withstand 8Kn side load, which I believe in layman terms is around 800kg.
Select to expand quoteBlueMoon said..andy59 said..Ramona said..
It seems the Clipper yachts have wrapped rope around the cleats to prevent further mishaps with clips.
Well that will probably stop that particular instance happening again. Its almost like the tether should come with a warning like "this tether will fail under side loading." it just seems like a negligence case waiting to happen to me.
Free Radical its seems pointless having a short and long tether if you have to be hooked on to the short one all the time.
Why not make hooks that can withstand 500kg side loading?? Would they be too large or heavy??
Edit: a webbing or spectra failsafe loop would do it.
Should be a very easy task to engineer a clip to withstand a 500kg side force, for example a standard ultra light weight alloy non locking rock climbing carabiner can withstand 8Kn side load, which I believe in layman terms is around 800kg.
It would be the lever action from how the hook was snagged that would be the issue, pretty easy to multiply the load substantially.
Andy, I don't like those uneven tethers, this is what I think is best
Jolene that looks a lot stronger than the standard tether
Free Radical I see what your saying it looks like your tether is designed to be always connected at 2 points. I guess that has to be better and probably would have saved his life
I have changed to a central jackline system with "fixed" tethers, as shown in this link:
www.morganscloud.com/category/safety/
So my tethers have a variety of boat-end clips, including some climbing screw-gate karrabiners, and other strong clips. I have conventional double-action clips on harness ends - but I hate them! Any heavy spring clip will do! Much easier for one-handed changes. Sorry no pics.
The rule is: do not go over the side EVER !!
Unfortunately, RKJ and Ramona are right!
The fact is, l never ever thought it would happen like this, the clip like the one on the picture below (mine is Bourke not Baltic, probably made in the same Chinese factory) got caught by the edge of the front deck hatch and slightly bent out of shape from a minimal side load, so it does not close perfectly any more.
Should expensive 'safety gear' get easily damaged like this? No! It should not!
The suggested alternative on the second foto, the red clip is a better looking one, guess it's climbing gear, but the snap shackle with the blue braided pull is a bad bad idea.
I would not trust an untied snap shackle holding me!
The way a snap shackle should be tied is very simple.
Get a 2mm line, tie a length at it's middle on the ring using a reef knot and tie the two bitter ends into an other reef knot back in the body of the shackle. Easy to tie and undo and it makes the accidental opening of the snap shackle impossible.
The strongest option, third pic, Jolene's safety harness hook is definitely the strongest but the roughest. I would hate to drag that unprotected lump of metal around my deck.
After this situation, how little side load deformed my clip, the findings and "safety lessons" of the CV30 tragedy are insults to our intelligence.
Chichester used to use a length of 1/2" laid rope tied to his harness with a bowline.
