My Cavalier 28 is going onto hard stand next week for maintenance. The main motivtion is to stop leaks into the cabin and stop any moisture getting into the fibreglass. Most of the hull to deck joint is covered by the toe rails, but there is a gap between the toe rail and the bow fitting where I can see the seam between the hull to deck joint doesn't look watertight. Also, while moored, when it rains, water tends to pool against the toerail on the decks outside the cockpit combings, so I want to ensure the seam is watertight.
The plan is to remove the toe rails and grind out the joint, reseal it and rebed the bolts.
There was some discussion here about doing this to a Cav 30 seven years ago, but there was no report on whether the job was ever attempted or the result. See www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Sailing/General/Leaking-toe-rail The Cav 30 and 28 are esentially the same boat except the 30 has a modified sugar scoop stern.
Any advice is appreciated. In my mind I am imagining everything that could go wrong. Will it come off? If it does will it retain its shape and can I get it back on?
I'm planning an overhaul to see the boat through the next ten years. Stripping back the very chuncky built up antifoul and applying epoxy barrier. painting deck and topsides. Renew the rig. Replacing leeking windows. This is all a novel experience to me. I'll post a threat on the progress as I go.
That's a massive job. I did something similar with my SS34 when I fixed the deck. I set it down with black mastic. I should imagine it will need looking at in 50 years. Mastic from a gun not tape. It was previously stuck down by a shipwright with Sikaflex. Sikaflex sticks to some stuff better than others, and I have found it often develops leaks. In your case I would leave the toerail in place. Clean the area with something like Metal Gleam {Phosphoric acid] and lay a bead of mastic all along the top edge and squeeze it in the gap at the bow. Just let the mastic skin over. Smear over the bolt heads on the outside of the track. Don't seal the inside of the bolts. Water has to go somewhere. If your keen you could pull one bolt at a time and add mastic under the head of the bolt.
Select to expand quoteRamona said..
That's a massive job. I did something similar with my SS34 when I fixed the deck. I set it down with black mastic. I should imagine it will need looking at in 50 years. Mastic from a gun not tape. It was previously stuck down by a shipwright with Sikaflex. Sikaflex sticks to some stuff better than others, and I have found it often develops leaks. In your case I would leave the toerail in place. Clean the area with something like Metal Gleam {Phosphoric acid] and lay a bead of mastic all along the top edge and squeeze it in the gap at the bow. Just let the mastic skin over. Smear over the bolt heads on the outside of the track. Don't seal the inside of the bolts. Water has to go somewhere. If your keen you could pull one bolt at a time and add mastic under the head of the bolt.
Agree got to use something out of a gun for this. Maybe 3m 5200 slow cure. Sticks like manure to a blanket to almost anything.
If you do go with Sikaflex for such a major job, make sure you use their recommended primer. I had to go all the way round the hull-deck join of my boat due to the PO mangling it. Happy to say still zero leaks 10 years later. Good luck with it.
Cheers! Graeme
Select to expand quoter13 said..Ramona said..
That's a massive job. I did something similar with my SS34 when I fixed the deck. I set it down with black mastic. I should imagine it will need looking at in 50 years. Mastic from a gun not tape. It was previously stuck down by a shipwright with Sikaflex. Sikaflex sticks to some stuff better than others, and I have found it often develops leaks. In your case I would leave the toerail in place. Clean the area with something like Metal Gleam {Phosphoric acid] and lay a bead of mastic all along the top edge and squeeze it in the gap at the bow. Just let the mastic skin over. Smear over the bolt heads on the outside of the track. Don't seal the inside of the bolts. Water has to go somewhere. If your keen you could pull one bolt at a time and add mastic under the head of the bolt.
Agree got to use something out of a gun for this. Maybe 3m 5200 slow cure. Sticks like manure to a blanket to almost anything.
3M 5200 might be a bit too strong. The toerails might be there permanently.
Fixtec have a range of products in a tube & from what I've seen I does what says it will
Thanks for the suggestions.
After some googling there are quite a few people who have resealed their hull to deck joints by rebedding their aluminium toe rails using products such as Sika and 3M.
I came across a suggestion to use a silyl-modified polymer such as Simpson MSR Construction Adhesive SSKF (by Bostik).
Forum post:
www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f55/placing-screws-in-grp-advice-sought-159518.html#post2018342
Product page:
www.bostik.com/files/live/sites/shared_bostik/files/documents-brochures/New%20Zealand/Documents/TDS/simson-msr-ca-sskf-jul-2013.-download.pdf
Bostik Marine Product brochure:
www.bostik.com/files/live/sites/shared_bostik/files/images/documents-and-brochures/General%20Transportation/bostik-uk-product-catalogue-marine.pdf
Retailer:
www.fortifiedoceanic.com.au/products/simson-msr-construction-adhesive?srsltid=AfmBOoqoAW69dh92dJBirza3PXWy9KEcvstGjgMdnLF5Aw2f-TxGOTh_&variant=47281478271284
As I am going to be replacing the windows as well, I might use this product for both jobs. That is, if I get to the toe rails. They are lower down the list.
Select to expand quotewongaga said..
If you do go with Sikaflex for such a major job, make sure you use their recommended primer. I had to go all the way round the hull-deck join of my boat due to the PO mangling it. Happy to say still zero leaks 10 years later. Good luck with it.
Cheers! Graeme
I've read a few examples of the importance of using the primer with Sikaflex, especially when bonding acrylic sheet windows.
One more thing. The stainless steel stantions are bolted onto the deck through the toe rails. I am expecting there will be some pitting/corrosion of the toe rails under the stantion posts when I lift them off.
What do people recommend for filling in any corrosion? I was thinking West System G Flex wth 404 High Density Filler? Perhaps I could also use that for the small sections either side of the bow where the deck to hull joint is exposed.
Polycarbonate widows is what I initially got the fixtec for & I've stuck all sorts of material together that is goo in a tube type of job. Be very conscious of your masking up and work clean. As to the toe rail corrosion I would wire brush it & let the goo do its thing, otherwise it could be filled with knead it or similar
Select to expand quoteJormungadr said..
Thanks for the suggestions.
After some googling there are quite a few people who have resealed their hull to deck joints by rebedding their aluminium toe rails using products such as Sika and 3M.
I came across a suggestion to use a silyl-modified polymer such as Simpson MSR Construction Adhesive SSKF (by Bostik).
Forum post:
www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f55/placing-screws-in-grp-advice-sought-159518.html#post2018342
Product page:
www.bostik.com/files/live/sites/shared_bostik/files/documents-brochures/New%20Zealand/Documents/TDS/simson-msr-ca-sskf-jul-2013.-download.pdf
Bostik Marine Product brochure:
www.bostik.com/files/live/sites/shared_bostik/files/images/documents-and-brochures/General%20Transportation/bostik-uk-product-catalogue-marine.pdf
Retailer:
www.fortifiedoceanic.com.au/products/simson-msr-construction-adhesive?srsltid=AfmBOoqoAW69dh92dJBirza3PXWy9KEcvstGjgMdnLF5Aw2f-TxGOTh_&variant=47281478271284
As I am going to be replacing the windows as well, I might use this product for both jobs. That is, if I get to the toe rails. They are lower down the list.
Agree 3M 5200 could be a tad strong - maybe 3M 4200?
Fixtech have excellent products and excellent phone advice. Bostik / Simson same but I have not used their phone advice. Didn't realise they had an Aust agent.
Using a product needing a dedicated primer is a real pain. For sure all surfaces will need cleaning but say only with suitable tools (chisels to carefully scrape away gunk without gouging anything) and sandpaper then finished with a solvent like IPA? Check with your adhesive sealant supplier.
As regards corrosion and material wastage - it depends on the extent. If the galvanic corrosion and aluminium wastage - eat away - is like my prior boat's Farr727 mast built circa mid-late 70s when I re-rigged it around 2016 - when I took the stainless spreader band off the mast by drilling out the rivets and there was a ~30mm hole in the alum mast wall each side due to the barrier compound breaking down - probably Duralac as built, gave me a near coronary...........I had to put on a doubler epoxy glued on then re-rivet the spreaders on including epoxy barrier glue under the ss spreader band and Tefgel between the rivets and alum. A lot of overtime needed to achieve the hardstand slipping booking time.
I expect you won't have such wastage of the toerail but check - ideally Tefgel is needed between the ss fasteners and the alum toerail. if you want to flush fill the whole toerail and the fasteners after suitable cleaning of old crud as above, with one product, a Fixtech product could do it - it could be 15 - suggest phone them.
Wow, such a learning curve. So Silyl-modified polymers (SMP; also silane-modified polymers, modified-silane polymers ,MS polymers, silane-terminated polymers, etc.) are all the same thing en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silyl_modified_polymers
Thanks for the replies. I'll give Fixtech a call. Aussie company.
