Hello,
I was just starting to take an interest in sailing when Covid 19 came along. So I can't go down to the local club to gain information and crew on a boat. Or take up Phil's generous offer.
Now all I can do is a bit of research online and ask questions here.
My first thought is can I afford to maintain a boat?
I'm thinking to start with a boat at around the 25 foot mark, keel or ts. I won't be buying one until I've had a bit of experience and a lot more knowledge.
1. Anti foul paint every 18 months $2000 (roughly)? Not required on a ts
2. Insurance and rego $ ??
3. Mooring or ts storage, I don't have the room to keep one at home. I know the cost of mooring is dependant on location, size, facilities and so on. I'm based in the Frankston area. Anyone know what it would cost to moor a 25 footer with in an hours drive from Frankston? And storage fees for a ts?
I'm sure there are other costs involved, this is just a starting point.
Thanks in advance everone, all advice, tips, pointers are appreciated.
Mike.
Hey Mike
Find a boat for sale ad that you like and get an online quote for insurance on the details, price etc on the ad.
You may find out the boat you like my be hard to insure, impossible to insure or just not worth insuring.
Select to expand quoteMike367 said..
Hello,
I was just starting to take an interest in sailing when Covid 19 came along. So I can't go down to the local club to gain information and crew on a boat. Or take up Phil's generous offer.
Now all I can do is a bit of research online and ask questions here.
My first thought is can I afford to maintain a boat?
I'm thinking to start with a boat at around the 25 foot mark, keel or ts. I won't be buying one until I've had a bit of experience and a lot more knowledge.
1. Anti foul paint every 18 months $2000 (roughly)? Not required on a ts
2. Insurance and rego $ ??
3. Mooring or ts storage, I don't have the room to keep one at home. I know the cost of mooring is dependant on location, size, facilities and so on. I'm based in the Frankston area. Anyone know what it would cost to moor a 25 footer with in an hours drive from Frankston? And storage fees for a ts?
I'm sure there are other costs involved, this is just a starting point.
Thanks in advance everone, all advice, tips, pointers are appreciated.
Mike.
Mike, some people with Trailer sailers park them on the street in front of their house, well secured of course. So long as it's trailer rego is paid that's allowed (at least in NSW and Vic and possibly other states). I think there may be something like an 8m limit so don't have it attached to your car overnight as some have found it expensive when the rangers are out early...yes, it then contravenes the limit, and yes its silly. Also having your boat close is convenient when maintenance is required.
Hi Mike
I have an Endeavour 26 on Lake Macquarie NSW. Costs me approx the following.
Rego - $167
Annual mooring Service - $242 + shackle if needed.
Annual Mooring fee - $279
Youi Third Party Ins - $440
Antifoul every 18-24 months - $1,100. includes doing gelcoat blister repairs. On the hard for 4 days.
Then put away some money for a rainy day - $........
So lets say $2,000 per year plus rainy day money.
Hope this helps.
Great summary there, similar to our 25footer. Assume you are talking about a grp yacht.
Typically any used yacht will need an injection of cash the first few months to sort out probable inherent issues such as battery, outboard service, sail repairs, varnish on timber trim, some new running rigging and sheets, maybe new solar panel, renew exterior and interior lights no longer serviceable, renew some elec cabling, renew lifeline wires, renew pulleys with badly eroded sheaves, other. Depending what you do yourself this could amount to an extra $500-$1,000 on top of the $2,000 for year 1. If the previous owner kept up with maintenance and repairs then it could be less. If a few sails need to be replaced these don't come cheap even 2nd hand - albeit there are good sources of 2nd hand sails now and if you can wait for the right bargain to come up they could be $2-400 each. Used j24 mains and jibs are usually excellent for that size of yacht - not the genoa it is way too long on the foot.
Every 10 years the standing rigging is recommended to be renewed - say around $800 for a basic 25footer not including removal and re-installation.
All the best with your sailing journey.
Select to expand quotevalo said..
Hi Mike
I have an Endeavour 26 on Lake Macquarie NSW. Costs me approx the following.
Rego - $167
Annual mooring Service - $242 + shackle if needed.
Annual Mooring fee - $279
Youi Third Party Ins - $440
Antifoul every 18-24 months - $1,100. includes doing gelcoat blister repairs. On the hard for 4 days.
Then put away some money for a rainy day - $........
So lets say $2,000 per year plus rainy day money.
Hope this helps.
Hi Valo,
great reply, thanks.
That's a lot less than I expected, do you know if the costs are similar here in Vic waters?
Cheers,
Mike.
Select to expand quoteGKandCC said..Mike367 said..
Hello,
I was just starting to take an interest in sailing when Covid 19 came along. So I can't go down to the local club to gain information and crew on a boat. Or take up Phil's generous offer.
Now all I can do is a bit of research online and ask questions here.
My first thought is can I afford to maintain a boat?
I'm thinking to start with a boat at around the 25 foot mark, keel or ts. I won't be buying one until I've had a bit of experience and a lot more knowledge.
1. Anti foul paint every 18 months $2000 (roughly)? Not required on a ts
2. Insurance and rego $ ??
3. Mooring or ts storage, I don't have the room to keep one at home. I know the cost of mooring is dependant on location, size, facilities and so on. I'm based in the Frankston area. Anyone know what it would cost to moor a 25 footer with in an hours drive from Frankston? And storage fees for a ts?
I'm sure there are other costs involved, this is just a starting point.
Thanks in advance everone, all advice, tips, pointers are appreciated.
Mike.
Mike, some people with Trailer sailers park them on the street in front of their house, well secured of course. So long as it's trailer rego is paid that's allowed (at least in NSW and Vic and possibly other states). I think there may be something like an 8m limit so don't have it attached to your car overnight as some have found it expensive when the rangers are out early...yes, it then contravenes the limit, and yes its silly. Also having your boat close is convenient when maintenance is required.
You are actually not allowed to park your boat on the road in hitched from the tow vehicle.
Select to expand quoter13 said..
Great summary there, similar to our 25footer. Assume you are talking about a grp yacht.
Typically any used yacht will need an injection of cash the first few months to sort out probable inherent issues such as battery, outboard service, sail repairs, varnish on timber trim, some new running rigging and sheets, maybe new solar panel, renew exterior and interior lights no longer serviceable, renew some elec cabling, renew lifeline wires, renew pulleys with badly eroded sheaves, other. Depending what you do yourself this could amount to an extra $500-$1,000 on top of the $2,000 for year 1. If the previous owner kept up with maintenance and repairs then it could be less. If a few sails need to be replaced these don't come cheap even 2nd hand - albeit there are good sources of 2nd hand sails now and if you can wait for the right bargain to come up they could be $2-400 each. Used j24 mains and jibs are usually excellent for that size of yacht - not the genoa it is way too long on the foot.
Every 10 years the standing rigging is recommended to be renewed - say around $800 for a basic 25footer not including removal and re-installation.
All the best with your sailing journey.
Another great reply, thanks r13.
Yes, as a first yacht a grp (fiberglass?) is what I'm looking at.
I'm afraid I don't know much about sails, yet. A genoa is a type of jib sail???
Your point of adding $1,000 onto the sale price to fix the possible issues you mentioned is a good one.
Cheers,
Mike.
No problem Mike. Yes grp is fibreglass - standing for glass reinforced plastic.
Costs in Vic should be similar but it would be interesting to get local responses.
Here is a good link explaining sails well. A genoa is a jib with a long foot which overlaps the mast - they are more difficult to tack and are used up to about 15kts depending on the yacht design. Many designs have jibs only.
improvesailing.com/guides/sail-types
Select to expand quoteMike367 said..valo said..
Hi Mike
I have an Endeavour 26 on Lake Macquarie NSW. Costs me approx the following.
Rego - $167
Annual mooring Service - $242 + shackle if needed.
Annual Mooring fee - $279
Youi Third Party Ins - $440
Antifoul every 18-24 months - $1,100. includes doing gelcoat blister repairs. On the hard for 4 days.
Then put away some money for a rainy day - $........
So lets say $2,000 per year plus rainy day money.
Hope this helps.
Hi Valo,
great reply, thanks.
That's a lot less than I expected, do you know if the costs are similar here in Vic waters?
Cheers,
Mike.
Mike;
Moorings in Port Phillip vary. Some areas (eg Williamstown) operate on a waiting list basis where you wait (a long time) for your turn to come up and there is a transfer but no purchase fee (but you might be up for some repair work on the mooring), In other areas (eg Sandringham and Blairgowrie) you acquire the mooring by paying the seller to transfer it to your name. In Sandy you'll pay around $4 - 5K, and maybe twice that in Blairgowrie. I think they are easier to get in Westernport.
Parks Vic annual fees are pretty low, but the mandatory annual inspection and maintenance will average out long-term at something like $500 pa. Laying a new mooring or repairing one that is knackered might run to a few grand.
Yaringa do mast-up ts storage, including launch/retrieval, google their website for cost
pm me for more info
Cheers, Graeme
Maintaining a boat, but these are my costs...
I have a f/glass 28 foot yacht that is 52 years old, because it was bigger than my first yacht, a 26 foot heavy steel yacht. This yacht has a half-lounge (like half a settee) and a kitchen/galley on one side, and a 2 seater table on the RHS of the cabin. I can stand up in this yacht as it is 6' tall inside, but not in the previous yacht. I have a V-shaped berth up forward and a porta-potti because it is mechanically simple and cheap.
Replacement insurance is about $300 a year, and the Vic rego is about $84. Being a keel yacht I have no trailer, so the options are a marina berth at $2000 a year, or a swing mooring at $340 a year plus maintenance of the mooring. The swing mooring cost about $3 300 to $4 000 to buy or install, and I have one for sale in Westernport. For a swing mooring you need a dinghy and perhaps a small outboard motor, depending on the tides (especially Westernport).
Every 2 years on average I need to have the yacht hauled out and to paint the bottom. All up this costs about $800 for me to do it, which involves a travel lift, 3 days on the ground, antifoul paint, and all the miscellaneous painting gear (rollers, tray, solvent, s/paper, etc). and sometimes a motel while doing that work, depending on the difference between where the yacht is and home.
If you choose well, there are a lot of boats in the $10 to $30k mark which will have a diesel engine and reasonable sails. You might want to get an autopilot, and some navigation gear, binoculars, some wet weather trousers, jacket and boots, you may want to explore coastal trips and so you'd want at least a 2nd anchor, rode, etc. Some boats will have these things, some will not, or you will want to replace them regardless.
If you give yourself a 2 - 3 year apprenticeship (day sails, then overnight or anchoring o/n, then a summer cruise etc) you can replace any equipment bit by bit, and thus choose wisely and string out your expenditure budget. But these are the main costs I can think of. For all that, you get to go fishing regularly, you have a hobby, you have a sport, and it gives you accommodation and new horizons. For your goal to sail to the UK, it is cheaper to fly, but you could sail there if you really wanted to and have the time.
Select to expand quoteFabulousPhill said..
Maintaining a boat, but these are my costs...
I have a f/glass 28 foot yacht that is 52 years old, because it was bigger than my first yacht, a 26 foot heavy steel yacht. This yacht has a half-lounge (like half a settee) and a kitchen/galley on one side, and a 2 seater table on the RHS of the cabin. I can stand up in this yacht as it is 6' tall inside, but not in the previous yacht. I have a V-shaped berth up forward and a porta-potti because it is mechanically simple and cheap.
Replacement insurance is about $300 a year, and the Vic rego is about $84. Being a keel yacht I have no trailer, so the options are a marina berth at $2000 a year, or a swing mooring at $340 a year plus maintenance of the mooring. The swing mooring cost about $3 300 to $4 000 to buy or install, and I have one for sale in Westernport. For a swing mooring you need a dinghy and perhaps a small outboard motor, depending on the tides (especially Westernport).
Every 2 years on average I need to have the yacht hauled out and to paint the bottom. All up this costs about $800 for me to do it, which involves a travel lift, 3 days on the ground, antifoul paint, and all the miscellaneous painting gear (rollers, tray, solvent, s/paper, etc). and sometimes a motel while doing that work, depending on the difference between where the yacht is and home.
If you choose well, there are a lot of boats in the $10 to $30k mark which will have a diesel engine and reasonable sails. You might want to get an autopilot, and some navigation gear, binoculars, some wet weather trousers, jacket and boots, you may want to explore coastal trips and so you'd want at least a 2nd anchor, rode, etc. Some boats will have these things, some will not, or you will want to replace them regardless.
If you give yourself a 2 - 3 year apprenticeship (day sails, then overnight or anchoring o/n, then a summer cruise etc) you can replace any equipment bit by bit, and thus choose wisely and string out your expenditure budget. But these are the main costs I can think of. For all that, you get to go fishing regularly, you have a hobby, you have a sport, and it gives you accommodation and new horizons. For your goal to sail to the UK, it is cheaper to fly, but you could sail there if you really wanted to and have the time.
Thanks for that Phil.
So, I'll need to buy a boat, add $1 or $2K for repairs, upgrades, and what not. Plus $3 to $4 K for a mooring, plus annual mooring fees. Then $ put aside for annual maintenance.
or
$10k for the boat, $5 k for repairs and a mooring. And around $2k per year in various fees and maintenance, does that sound right?
There are a lot of unused moorings at Blairgowrie/ Camerons Bight. They are all meant to be inspected and maintained annually. I rent one for $100 a month which is about how much it costs the owner to service the mooring. Greg Fink or Mullys are the mooring contractors who maintain them. Asking around, you should be able to rent one.
Hiya Mike,
If you do buy, buy the smallest boat that serves your needs. Boats have an uncanny ability to double in cost every time you add a few more feet on the waterline.
For example, a headsail for a 40' will buy two headsails on a 34'. A headsail on a 34' will buy two headsails for a 26' .
Best of luck to you and don't be afraid to post any queries, there's a good bunch of people that frequent these boards.
cheers,
SB
Select to expand quoteMike367 said..
So, I'll need to buy a boat, add......., does that sound right?
My experience is that going from a budget of $10k to $20k would save an enormous amount of time with things that are not perfect. At the greater budget the d?cor is better, the motor is bigger/newer/maintained better, all the paintwork is maintained, the sails are newer, maybe a furler is installed, an autopilot is included, etc, and it all saves hassle. I have read too many books of people spending months getting a boat ready, before voyaging.
That is why I suggested sailing first, getting some practice on our boats, before you buy your own boat. You'll have a better idea of what things are, what you want and what is feasible in a price range before spending time inspecting. Guitz' advice to rent a mooring is a much better idea, and introduces you to a new area without committing capital, and you can always move if you don't like the situation.
Does "essential shopping" include boat shopping?
Select to expand quoteGuitz said..
There are a lot of unused moorings at Blairgowrie/ Camerons Bight. They are all meant to be inspected and maintained annually. I rent one for $100 a month which is about how much it costs the owner to service the mooring. Greg Fink or Mullys are the mooring contractors who maintain them. Asking around, you should be able to rent one.
Great idea, I'll definitely look into that. I think Blairgowrie is just under an hours drive from me. And I might be able to rent something closer to home.
Thanks,
Mike.
Select to expand quoteFabulousPhill said..Mike367 said..
So, I'll need to buy a boat, add......., does that sound right?
My experience is that going from a budget of $10k to $20k would save an enormous amount of time with things that are not perfect. At the greater budget the d?cor is better, the motor is bigger/newer/maintained better, all the paintwork is maintained, the sails are newer, maybe a furler is installed, an autopilot is included, etc, and it all saves hassle. I have read too many books of people spending months getting a boat ready, before voyaging.
That is why I suggested sailing first, getting some practice on our boats, before you buy your own boat. You'll have a better idea of what things are, what you want and what is feasible in a price range before spending time inspecting. Guitz' advice to rent a mooring is a much better idea, and introduces you to a new area without committing capital, and you can always move if you don't like the situation.
Does "essential shopping" include boat shopping?
Haha probably not essential shopping, and as you suggest I plan on doing a bit of sailing first. Just as son as I can I'll be visiting a local yacht club or two for a chat.
And I am looking forward to getting my feet wet, with a bit of practice as you put it.
Budget wise as my wife isn't too keen on the whole idea, (I'm hoping she'll fall in love with sailing when she tries it). But right now I'm thinking cheaper would be easier, which means a smaller boat.
That might not be a bad idea, a small boat to do my apprenticeship in, then upgrade in 2 to 3 years. Maybe something around the 16 foot mark, something suitable for the bays and lakes.
Cheers,
Mike.
Select to expand quoteshaggybaxter said..
Hiya Mike,
If you do buy, buy the smallest boat that serves your needs. Boats have an uncanny ability to double in cost every time you add a few more feet on the waterline.
For example, a headsail for a 40' will buy two headsails on a 34'. A headsail on a 34' will buy two headsails for a 26' .
Best of luck to you and don't be afraid to post any queries, there's a good bunch of people that frequent these boards.
cheers,
SB
Hi SB
Thanks for the tip and the novice questions will keep coming :)
+1 on Phil's budget advice. When shopping for my boat 11 years ago, I did the arithmetic to bring a cheaper boat up to the standard of the better boat. The doodads you get with the better boat (autopilot, pfd's, extra sails etc etc) will come at an effective price way below repacement. In my case the cheaper boat would have ended up costing at least 10% more and that did not include any labour. Plus if you're new, being able to just sail the darned thing from day 1 is incredibly important (to the wife as well).
All sailboats go through long cycles where the rigging, engine and sails are replaced and then gradually wear out. Ideally you get one where these maor-cost items are fairly early in the cycle. Otherwise you can spend a major percentage of the purchase price fixing/replacing any one of them. My comments mai ly relate to keelboats, TS'ers may differ. Take your time.
Cheers, Graeme
Select to expand quoteGKandCC said..Mike367 said..
Hello,
I was just starting to take an interest in sailing when Covid 19 came along. So I can't go down to the local club to gain information and crew on a boat. Or take up Phil's generous offer.
Now all I can do is a bit of research online and ask questions here.
My first thought is can I afford to maintain a boat?
I'm thinking to start with a boat at around the 25 foot mark, keel or ts. I won't be buying one until I've had a bit of experience and a lot more knowledge.
1. Anti foul paint every 18 months $2000 (roughly)? Not required on a ts
2. Insurance and rego $ ??
3. Mooring or ts storage, I don't have the room to keep one at home. I know the cost of mooring is dependant on location, size, facilities and so on. I'm based in the Frankston area. Anyone know what it would cost to moor a 25 footer with in an hours drive from Frankston? And storage fees for a ts?
I'm sure there are other costs involved, this is just a starting point.
Thanks in advance everone, all advice, tips, pointers are appreciated.
Mike.
Mike, some people with Trailer sailers park them on the street in front of their house, well secured of course. So long as it's trailer rego is paid that's allowed (at least in NSW and Vic and possibly other states). I think there may be something like an 8m limit so don't have it attached to your car overnight as some have found it expensive when the rangers are out early...yes, it then contravenes the limit, and yes its silly. Also having your boat close is convenient when maintenance is required.
With a trailer-sailer, make sure you know the rules before planning to park it on the road. In QLD (and other States?) the limiting dimensions are 2.5m width and 7.5m length. Watch out for the length, because the mast will likely exceed 7.5m. In any case, the length will be tow-ball to rear of outboard or rudder. I measured my 20ft boat on a trailer and it came in at 7.2m. I was considering a Noelex 25, but one at the boat club measured about 8.7m tow-ball to rudder. I estimated that the max length for a 7.5m trailer was about 22ft, not including the mast.
The problem is that if you get caught, you can get a new fine for every hour it is illegally parked.
I kept my TS on a hardstand at Wynnum Manly Yacht Club for about $1500 per year (plus $400 for club membership). I occasionally drove it home for maintenance jobs. Yes, I know it is not Vic, but it gives you something for comparison. I had it for a couple of years, and learned heaps. A trailer-sailer is a relatively low-cost, low risk entry strategy - if you use it less than expected, it will physically deteriorate at a slower rate than a boat in the water. I sold it for my current Cavalier 28 keel boat, and am not missing the 1 hour launch and and 1 hour retrieve routine.
Select to expand quoteAchernar said..GKandCC said..Mike367 said..
Hello,
I was just starting to take an interest in sailing when Covid 19 came along. So I can't go down to the local club to gain information and crew on a boat. Or take up Phil's generous offer.
Now all I can do is a bit of research online and ask questions here.
My first thought is can I afford to maintain a boat?
I'm thinking to start with a boat at around the 25 foot mark, keel or ts. I won't be buying one until I've had a bit of experience and a lot more knowledge.
1. Anti foul paint every 18 months $2000 (roughly)? Not required on a ts
2. Insurance and rego $ ??
3. Mooring or ts storage, I don't have the room to keep one at home. I know the cost of mooring is dependant on location, size, facilities and so on. I'm based in the Frankston area. Anyone know what it would cost to moor a 25 footer with in an hours drive from Frankston? And storage fees for a ts?
I'm sure there are other costs involved, this is just a starting point.
Thanks in advance everone, all advice, tips, pointers are appreciated.
Mike.
Mike, some people with Trailer sailers park them on the street in front of their house, well secured of course. So long as it's trailer rego is paid that's allowed (at least in NSW and Vic and possibly other states). I think there may be something like an 8m limit so don't have it attached to your car overnight as some have found it expensive when the rangers are out early...yes, it then contravenes the limit, and yes its silly. Also having your boat close is convenient when maintenance is required.
With a trailer-sailer, make sure you know the rules before planning to park it on the road. In QLD (and other States?) the limiting dimensions are 2.5m width and 7.5m length. Watch out for the length, because the mast will likely exceed 7.5m. In any case, the length will be tow-ball to rear of outboard or rudder. I measured my 20ft boat on a trailer and it came in at 7.2m. I was considering a Noelex 25, but one at the boat club measured about 8.7m tow-ball to rudder. I estimated that the max length for a 7.5m trailer was about 22ft, not including the mast.
The problem is that if you get caught, you can get a new fine for every hour it is illegally parked.
I kept my TS on a hardstand at Wynnum Manly Yacht Club for about $1500 per year (plus $400 for club membership). I occasionally drove it home for maintenance jobs. Yes, I know it is not Vic, but it gives you something for comparison. I had it for a couple of years, and learned heaps. A trailer-sailer is a relatively low-cost, low risk entry strategy - if you use it less than expected, it will physically deteriorate at a slower rate than a boat in the water. I sold it for my current Cavalier 28 keel boat, and am not missing the 1 hour launch and and 1 hour retrieve routine.
Thanks for that, I've been weighing up the cost versus convenience between TS and keel. I'm leaning towards keel as they are more stable (or so I read), and I can rent a swing mooring for approx $1200 a year. Storing a 23foot TS is around the $2500 a year, (I wonder if I can anything cheaper), but that includes them getting her in and out of the water, a powered work area. But then again there is no need for antifoul with a TS.
Haha I'm going round in circles.
Select to expand quoteMike367 said..Achernar said..GKandCC said..Mike367 said..
Hello,
I was just starting to take an interest in sailing when Covid 19 came along. So I can't go down to the local club to gain information and crew on a boat. Or take up Phil's generous offer.
Now all I can do is a bit of research online and ask questions here.
My first thought is can I afford to maintain a boat?
I'm thinking to start with a boat at around the 25 foot mark, keel or ts. I won't be buying one until I've had a bit of experience and a lot more knowledge.
1. Anti foul paint every 18 months $2000 (roughly)? Not required on a ts
2. Insurance and rego $ ??
3. Mooring or ts storage, I don't have the room to keep one at home. I know the cost of mooring is dependant on location, size, facilities and so on. I'm based in the Frankston area. Anyone know what it would cost to moor a 25 footer with in an hours drive from Frankston? And storage fees for a ts?
I'm sure there are other costs involved, this is just a starting point.
Thanks in advance everone, all advice, tips, pointers are appreciated.
Mike.
Mike, some people with Trailer sailers park them on the street in front of their house, well secured of course. So long as it's trailer rego is paid that's allowed (at least in NSW and Vic and possibly other states). I think there may be something like an 8m limit so don't have it attached to your car overnight as some have found it expensive when the rangers are out early...yes, it then contravenes the limit, and yes its silly. Also having your boat close is convenient when maintenance is required.
With a trailer-sailer, make sure you know the rules before planning to park it on the road. In QLD (and other States?) the limiting dimensions are 2.5m width and 7.5m length. Watch out for the length, because the mast will likely exceed 7.5m. In any case, the length will be tow-ball to rear of outboard or rudder. I measured my 20ft boat on a trailer and it came in at 7.2m. I was considering a Noelex 25, but one at the boat club measured about 8.7m tow-ball to rudder. I estimated that the max length for a 7.5m trailer was about 22ft, not including the mast.
The problem is that if you get caught, you can get a new fine for every hour it is illegally parked.
I kept my TS on a hardstand at Wynnum Manly Yacht Club for about $1500 per year (plus $400 for club membership). I occasionally drove it home for maintenance jobs. Yes, I know it is not Vic, but it gives you something for comparison. I had it for a couple of years, and learned heaps. A trailer-sailer is a relatively low-cost, low risk entry strategy - if you use it less than expected, it will physically deteriorate at a slower rate than a boat in the water. I sold it for my current Cavalier 28 keel boat, and am not missing the 1 hour launch and and 1 hour retrieve routine.
Thanks for that, I've been weighing up the cost versus convenience between TS and keel. I'm leaning towards keel as they are more stable (or so I read), and I can rent a swing mooring for approx $1200 a year. Storing a 23foot TS is around the $2500 a year, (I wonder if I can anything cheaper), but that includes them getting her in and out of the water, a powered work area. But then again there is no need for antifoul with a TS.
Haha I'm going round in circles.
You will soon tire of the rigamarole of raising and lowering the mast with a trailer sailer. Finding a good ramp without a strong onshore breeze. Ramp with a good carpark close by. Nice safe shallow water that your missus can stand in holding the bow while you traipse off to get the car. That water in winter can be cold!
At the moment trailing a trailersailer behind your car is going to annoy a lot of people. Check out the trailer sailers in yacht clubs parking area with the grass growing up through the trailer and the asking price of really good trailer sailers on Gumtree and ask yourself why!
Select to expand quoteMike367 said..Achernar said..GKandCC said..Mike367 said..
Hello,
I was just starting to take an interest in sailing when Covid 19 came along. So I can't go down to the local club to gain information and crew on a boat. Or take up Phil's generous offer.
Now all I can do is a bit of research online and ask questions here.
My first thought is can I afford to maintain a boat?
I'm thinking to start with a boat at around the 25 foot mark, keel or ts. I won't be buying one until I've had a bit of experience and a lot more knowledge.
1. Anti foul paint every 18 months $2000 (roughly)? Not required on a ts
2. Insurance and rego $ ??
3. Mooring or ts storage, I don't have the room to keep one at home. I know the cost of mooring is dependant on location, size, facilities and so on. I'm based in the Frankston area. Anyone know what it would cost to moor a 25 footer with in an hours drive from Frankston? And storage fees for a ts?
I'm sure there are other costs involved, this is just a starting point.
Thanks in advance everone, all advice, tips, pointers are appreciated.
Mike.
Mike, some people with Trailer sailers park them on the street in front of their house, well secured of course. So long as it's trailer rego is paid that's allowed (at least in NSW and Vic and possibly other states). I think there may be something like an 8m limit so don't have it attached to your car overnight as some have found it expensive when the rangers are out early...yes, it then contravenes the limit, and yes its silly. Also having your boat close is convenient when maintenance is required.
With a trailer-sailer, make sure you know the rules before planning to park it on the road. In QLD (and other States?) the limiting dimensions are 2.5m width and 7.5m length. Watch out for the length, because the mast will likely exceed 7.5m. In any case, the length will be tow-ball to rear of outboard or rudder. I measured my 20ft boat on a trailer and it came in at 7.2m. I was considering a Noelex 25, but one at the boat club measured about 8.7m tow-ball to rudder. I estimated that the max length for a 7.5m trailer was about 22ft, not including the mast.
The problem is that if you get caught, you can get a new fine for every hour it is illegally parked.
I kept my TS on a hardstand at Wynnum Manly Yacht Club for about $1500 per year (plus $400 for club membership). I occasionally drove it home for maintenance jobs. Yes, I know it is not Vic, but it gives you something for comparison. I had it for a couple of years, and learned heaps. A trailer-sailer is a relatively low-cost, low risk entry strategy - if you use it less than expected, it will physically deteriorate at a slower rate than a boat in the water. I sold it for my current Cavalier 28 keel boat, and am not missing the 1 hour launch and and 1 hour retrieve routine.
Thanks for that, I've been weighing up the cost versus convenience between TS and keel. I'm leaning towards keel as they are more stable (or so I read), and I can rent a swing mooring for approx $1200 a year. Storing a 23foot TS is around the $2500 a year, (I wonder if I can anything cheaper), but that includes them getting her in and out of the water, a powered work area. But then again there is no need for antifoul with a TS.
Haha I'm going round in circles.
if you are interested in a TS, head towards TrailerSailerPlace www.trailersailerplace.com.au/
This is a really big topic, but here's a very, very quick guide
PROS
* There are plenty of used TS's around, and its a buyer's market
* You can drag a TS home for maintenance jobs. One poster on TrailerSailerPlace is rebuilding a Farr 6 at home (and doing a nice job of it)
* If you leave it for a while on its trailer, not much will happen to it
* You can drive it to more remote locations quicker than sailing a keelboat (provided your trailer is good). The TrailerSailerPlace has a number of stories of folks travelling Melbourne to Whitsundays, Paynesville Lakes, The Kimberleys etc
CONS
* The boats are usually small and cramped - you need space in the cabin for the drop or swing keel
* A cruising TS is typically slower than an equivalent keelboat, and does not point as well. The technical reasons are to do with the keel and the tendency to lose tension in the rigging when you demount it. Racing TSs are obviously faster, but they are a different beast.
* Half the value is in the trailer
* A TS will take longer to launch and retrieve. I reckoned on an hour to get it from the hardstand until sailing and an hour vice versa, and this was with mast-up storage. Those 2 additional hours are a considerable premium for a day-sail. The topic of mast-raising and lowering is a big issue in TSs.
EITHER WAY
* A nice 25ft TS will cost more than an equivalent keelboat. The reason is that they need a robust lift/swing keel mechanism, and a big chunk of money for a decent trailer. IMO, a TS makes most sense in the 14-22 ft range. There are a number of owners who have had a lot of fun on a Cal 14.
* TSs are generally built to be light for towing, but light boats are less secure in the water
IF I HAD THE MONEY TO BUY ANOTHER TS ...
I'd take a serious look at a new Swan Cygnet. Its 20ft, but with carbon masts (light and easy to put up), a gaff rig (shorter spars for road-legal lengths) and water ballast. But, it is about $50K plus, which would buy me a good old Noelex 25, or RL28, or maybe a Duncanson 26 ...
I bet you you can't tow a trailer sailer about at the moment! You can go out to your moored yacht and go sailing though if you social distance.
a question for you mike.
Do you want to own a boat, or do you want to go sailing?
You'll do more of the second, if you dont have the first.
Nothing wrong with either version, but it's pretty legitimate distinction.
The people who sail most down our club, are those that do it on OPB's (other peoples boats).
You'll get more experience, variety of boats, socially as well (CV aside), learning from others.
If you rock up to any club, keen, with a good attitude, youd be more than welcome as crew on 99% of boats
best of luck
Select to expand quotecrustysailor said..
a question for you mike.
Do you want to own a boat, or do you want to go sailing?
You'll do more of the second, if you dont have the first.
Nothing wrong with either version, but it's pretty legitimate distinction.
The people who sail most down our club, are those that do it on OPB's (other peoples boats).
You'll get more experience, variety of boats, socially as well (CV aside), learning from others.
If you rock up to any club, keen, with a good attitude, youd be more than welcome as crew on 99% of boats
best of luck
I'll definitely be visiting the local clubs, when I get the chance, and having a chat with a couple of members on this forum.
cheers
Hi Mike
Here are more costs for you. All advice above is good.
Farr 7500
Insurance $400 Rego $86?
Trailer Rego $58
Moorings
Mooring Inspection $450 Parks vic fee $260?
Swing Mooring at Blairgowie - $4000 -$12000
St Kilda Marina Hard Stand - Annual $3,300 (long waiting list)
This is a much discussed topic. The thing is Port Philip Bay is a big slab of water andto be honest
it's a bit boring. If your thinking about cruising it can take a day to go fromsaySt Kilda to Sorrento.
Thats why mostSailors prefer to race their boats on the Bay. Now, as to TS vs Keel boats the thing
about a small keel boat is your locked into the Bay. At least with a TS you can go down to the lakes,
and up to QLD and NSW if you have the time. A 25 ft TS is quite stable on the Bay, in fact I've never been
worried about that.
You really have to think about what sort of sailing you want to do. Short day sails, cruise's or racing.
With how many people?
The main lesson I have learnt is it has to be easy to get on the boat and sail. I used to have a 18ft TS
that I kept at home. After a while it became a real pain to rig and derail the boat. You really had to go
out all day to make it worthwhile and you would be completely shagged at the end of the day.
The 18 footer was also (to me) too small for cruising. My belief is that 25ft boats are in the sweet spot.
Comfortable to Cruise and competitive to race - Sonata's, Noelex's Castle 650's and Farr 6000 & 7500's.
Now I'm very fortunate to have a 25ft Farr 7500 on the hard stand at St Kilda. I can get there in 10 minutes
and have the boat on the water ready to go in 20 minutes. Sometimes on a good day I'll go out for an
hour or two just for fun. However the really big thing for me is Racing (which I didn't think I would be interested in)
Its the best way to really learn how to sail and fun. Theres only so many times you can sail over
to Williamstown and back. At the moment I just do social Mid week sails but I intend
to do more next season (if it happens...) plus another lap around the bay and then head North... Gods willing.
A mooring in Camerons bight or Hastings could be a good option.
I reckon once sailing comes back, hopefully before summer then I would suggest maybe you check out
Mornington Yacht Club or Safety Beach Sailing club, get on a few boats and see what you like. Their are also lots of
People with TS's down that way. Get on to Trailersailerplace and you will find lots of people happy to help out.
All the best with you hunt.
Select to expand quoteMike367 said..
Thanks Achernar and Ramona, I'm more and more leaning towards a keel boat.
Your idea of going to have a chat with the folks at the boat club is a really good one. After owning my Austral 20 for a couple of years, I decided it was time to move on, so I asked some folks at my boat club "It might be a long and winding path to get a new boat, but what do you recommend?" By that time, my TS had taught me what kind of sailing I was likely to be doing - mostly solo, day sails, but comfortable enough to get the Admiral on board (needed to be able to stand upright inside and have an enclosed head). One of the club members needed to sell his boat for health reasons, it all lined up, and I bought the boat (without an agent). I paid for a pre-purchase inspection by a boat surveyor, which gave the boat a positive bill of health, and showed me some of the things to look out for for future maintenance. For example, I replaced the prop in February because the old one had got rattly and could not get the boat above 4 knots without shaking the stern to pieces.
Overall, it has been a really positive experience. The big lessons for me are
1 The support of a boating community is invaluable. If you buy within a boat club, you'll get all sorts of help from advice about who to call for those odd jobs, to folks who know how to fix dodgy wiring, and will volunteer their time to help you out
2 Don't get too fixed on one size/make/model of boat, but buy the best condition boat you can find, even if it means getting something smaller than what you had expected. I set out looking for something in the 30 to 32 foot range and got a good example of a Cavalier 28 (28 ft). There are poor examples of a Cav28 out there, and there are other makes/models that are equally as good or as bad. The problem facing the novice is that he or she might not know what "good condition" means. Your Boat Surveyor is your friend in these circumstances. I took time off work to stand beside my Boat Surveyor as he went through his stuff, and it was a real education.
3 Buy locally, at least to start with. You don't want to travel interstate (current restrictions notwithstanding) only to find that the photos of the boat of your dreams don't tell the whole story.
Finally, a cheap boat that needs a lot of work is not a bargain. Unless, you prefer working to sailing.
