Input on handicapping numbers please

We used to have a similar issue with doing handicaps for 1 design dinghies (yes that sounds strange, but the handicap reflected peoples experience level, not the boats performance).

Put your estimated starting handicaps into topyacht (or whatever you use) and enter the results for the first 4 races that are in 10-15 knot (i.e. normal) conditions and let topyacht do the calculations. Don't post the results. Then take the resulting handicap (EHC or equiv) and use that as the opening handicap for the series and recalculate everything. Where a boat misses a race or is DNF, give them average points (for the sake of the handicap calculation only) unless their other results seem exceptional. Give the handicap program a wide range of margin to start with, then progressively tighten down the screws to hit the back to back winners until you are in a tighter band of movement.

Don't worry that some boats perform better on some days. Many boats performance has much more to do with who is on board at the time.
Any boat you don't know, give them equivilent to the highest handicap in the fleet and let them work to their true handicap over the season.

Also watch for boats that play dead near the end of a series when it looks like they are not going to win a prize. Freeze their handicap till the start of the next series.

I reckon your order looks pretty damn good apart from the Marauder, H28 and perhaps the 349.

I've got a spreadsheet showing IRC, ORC, US PHRF and UK NHC ratings for about 2500 boats, plus other data that I use to assess comparative boatspeed (aka "cherry picking" according to someone here). I then have a few calcs to bring them back to a common denominator rating. So at the risk of being incoherent since I'm about to crash out, here's some ideas. I have given the rating, the source, and the conversion to the common denominator. Since there are variations between design and since some rules treat boats different, there are significant differences in the outcome.

Melges 32 - Rates 538 on ORC = .892 when converted to common denominator; 1.153 on IRC = .876; 24 on US PHRF = .836; 1.145 on NHC = .859

Melges 24- 628 on ORC= .764; 1.018 on IRC= .763; 108 on US PHRF = .729. .859 on NHC = .76;

These boats rate badly on IRC and (unless modified) on ORC so maybe use the low end of the average of those numbers. The US PHRF numbers for sportsboats are often pretty solid since they are not based on the measured ratings that often penalise sportsboats.

There's a huge variation in the Jeanneau's ORCi numbers, from 690 to 737. That's extremely unusual and it shows there must be many configurations. You can log onto the ORCi site for free, look up the design (under the Sun Odyssey label) and see which of the boats with ORCi certificates is closest to your one.

Yamaha 33 - 692.2 on ORCi = .693, US PHRF = .695 so say .694

Swanson 36 = NHC of .928 = .696; a bit high compared to the ORCi and IRC ratings for comparable boats like Carter "Tina" types and the early Clarionet/Boambillee/Rainbow II S&S one tons. I'd nudge that down to .685-.690.

Doven 30; Conquistador, Quintal etc were competitive with other early '70s half tonners (East Coast 31s, Defiance 30s etc) as proven by Conquistador's third place in the '74 (?) national half ton titles. Using roughly equivalent half tonners we get about .648.

I've got the old YV sheets somewhere, which I was given eons ago by the guy who ran the handicapping for Port Phillip. They give H28, Compass 28, Top Hat and Farr handicaps for individual boats. Most of these designs have several individual boats handicapped. The average of those handicaps was then used as the "class mark" for new boats of that design entering the system.

I don't think there's much info on the Marauder. I used to race a bunch of them as a kid and also raced bunches of Clansmen and Bonbridges. I can't see how the late '70s designed Marauder 27/825 could be slower than the 1930s (albeit modified) H28. The ones at Middle Harbour YC could hang in close to the half tonners like East Coasts, Currawongs etc.

At a guess I'd say .63+ for the Marauder, .6- for the Top Hat and Compass, .59 for the H28 and .55(?) for the Farr but I may have time to check the YV ratings before I leave for a few days.

The best way to calculate the Elliott's rating would be to use a comparison with the Melges on CBH and SMS, wouldn't it?

Hi all

Thanks for your thoughts so far

I forgot to mention we also have a Manitou 32 as well

The walker H28 (Hayden's old boat) is a bit of a unknown speed wise but the 3 blokes who bought her over from Melbourne said she had a good turn of speed with her new sails so we will have to see how she goes

With new to the club boats we normally do 3 races to see how they go before assigning a handicap but the weather down here is so unsettled and changeable it is hard to get consistent conditions throughout a race

I did the handicapping last season and I was happy if the corrected times for the fleet were fairly close at the end but the problem is if you have a 6 hour race with no wind for the first hour when everyone is going nowhere the slower boats with the low numbers have the advantage as the faster boats are not pulling away from them and with a twilight race the early slower boats can be starting in 10 knots sea breeze whereas the faster boats can be starting 30 minutes later in 2 knots when the temperature drops

in the case of the 800kg Elliott and the 5300kg jenneau 349 in 0 to 15 knots the Elliott is a lot faster but in 15 to 30 knots the 349 has the advantage as the Elliott gets knocked over by the strong gusts but the handicaps don't alter with the forecast

This season I am handing the handicapping over to another member and I want to try to get the starting numbers somewhere close to what they should be

Regards Don

Don
Knowing the boats, and using IRC as a base but reducing the base to 80 which for some reason some Tas clubs do (and to stop people who don't understand it is relative and whinge the handicap on the river went up) try these.
I have used Jeff's boat as the base of 1.000 by 0.80.

Melges 32 1.098 0.944
Melges 24 0.890 0.816
Elliott 7.8 0.885 0.824
Jenneau 349 0.851 0.800
Yamaha 33 0.748
Swanson 36 0.744
Doven 30 0.709 0.725
Sailmaster 845 0.700 0.670
Walker H28 0.660
Compass 28 0.675
Marauder 27 0.690 0.688
Tophat 25 0.544
Farr 5000 0.570 impossible to do fairly relative to fleet but try 0.575
Wombat 26 0.730
Humpheries 29 0.775

Don the problem is, it's all but impossible to assess one individual boat against another. I just checked one example - a good one design class, all boats looking pretty good, and 14% difference in average speed over a series!!! To give some perspective, that's the same sort of speed difference as there is between a J/24 and a J/35, a newer boat 11ft longer and by the same designer. As another example, a quick look at those old Victorian records shows 16% speed difference between Thunderbirds (which were then an active class), 17% between the fastest and slowest Holland 25, etc. At my dinghy club the Laser Radial, which has 20% less sail, normally beats the newer full-rig Lasers - if you just looked at that isolated example would you say the Radial is faster?

When there's such a huge speed difference to be seen in sisterships, how can one say that a 1-2% difference in speed is due to one boat having a better design, or by the difference in gear and sailing? One other thing we haven't been told is whether they all carry folding props etc, since a fixed prop takes about 2% of speed off.

It's hard to tell by looking at a boat - who can tell from visuals how much the Swano's extra metre of LOA affects speed? How much does the Swano's cleaner stern lines help it over the Yamaha, which has a slight AGS bump? The IOR rule thought it was faster - why is it wrong? Why would Don Lees, not a silly man, design a boat in the late '60s that was slower than the one that Herreshoff drew in about 1938? Why would the Sailmaster, a boat that has more wetted surface and weight, be slower than a Marauder? It's possible, given the Sailmaster's possible bigger rig and stability, but unlikely IMHO.

IMHO the only way to start to look at it is by using a rating rule or by getting data from other boats of each design, which sadly we don't do properly in Australia. Guys like you are in an impossible situation.

Edit - I see Lydia posted while I was writing. His thoughts ring true to me.

Hi Chris and Lydia

The link below shows the results of the 2016 Cock of the Huon race where we used my Sailmaster Aqua-fae when Jeffs new 349 didn't arrive in time

dssinc-results.org/results/2016PIPEOPENER/2016PIPEOPENER/02RGrp20.htm

In div 3 Obsession is a Doven 30 , Stardust Dancer is a Marauder 27 , Take 5 is a Traditional 30, lock on wood is a Dubois 31 and Kaiulani is a Snook 30 (I am not sure what True Blue is)

From memory the breeze during the race was fairly consistant so looking at the elapsed time for the boats I have named are the times consistant with what you would expect

Interested in your thoughts

Regards Don

Hi Lydia

Where would you put the Manitou 32 in the list and Mick also believes that the Melges 24 is a faster boat than his Elliott and that seems to be reflected in the numbers for both boats listed here
s3-ap-southeast-2.amazonaws.com/piano.revolutionise.com.au/cups/yvtyd/files/w2n3jeziercghjck.pdf
Interested in your thoughts

Regards Don