Clansman yacht moulds Ebay.

Wonder when these Clansman moulds were used last ???
Someone was also selling recently the original moulds for the Contessa 25 up Cardiff way.
Maybe time has passed them by.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/CLANSMAN-YACHT-MOULDS-LOCAL-PICKUP-ONLY/272811348140?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D45738%26meid%3Db96080883ec848d7b2359215afb6dd63%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D172821307938&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

would love to build some clansman i think they are the ultimate small offshore yacht unfortunately all people want to buy is imported crap

If I built a new Clansman I would chop 150mm off the transom so it came in under 9m. Many have spray hoods and side dodgers to improve the offshore comfort.

This same seller has the moulds plus a hull, deck and rigging for a new Investigator 563.

Think the only hope to revive these boats would be to ship the moulds off to Vietnam or similar.

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nswsailor said..
I agree Yara, we costed a new build for a Top Hat, the moulds still exists, some years ago and it came out at over 100K

That of course the reason there are very few new yachts being built in Australia.

There is the occasional S&S 34 coming out of Perth but they are $165,000 for just hull and deck.

France must have pretty high costs, no?

It is interesting to see the number of small yachts being produced in eastern Europe, where some standards may be lower. I wonder how profitable Sydney Yachts was when they were selling enough boats?

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Chris 249 said..
France must have pretty high costs, no?

I read the Bavaria brochure which illustrates how C.A.D and C.A.M. have eliminated a great deal of the labour factor.

Add to that the cheap labour Europe gets from Poland, Romania, Turkey etc. etc and you can see how they achieve a viable industry.

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Chris 249 said..
France must have pretty high costs, no?

It is interesting to see the number of small yachts being produced in eastern Europe, where some standards may be lower. I wonder how profitable Sydney Yachts was when they were selling enough boats?

What's "enough boats"?

Beneteau at their peak could build 2000 boats a year. They are highly automated, not unlike a car builder.

In the past, import duties and the cost of freight helped protect our local industry but both have come down whilst automation and scales of economy continue to improve for large manufacturers.

Australia's only chance is to go large scale manufacture including export like Riviera did or capture a niche market like Buizen did.

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Ringle said..

Chris 249 said..
France must have pretty high costs, no?

It is interesting to see the number of small yachts being produced in eastern Europe, where some standards may be lower. I wonder how profitable Sydney Yachts was when they were selling enough boats?

What's "enough boats"?

Beneteau at their peak could build 2000 boats a year. They are highly automated, not unlike a car builder.

In the past, import duties and the cost of freight helped protect our local industry but both have come down whilst automation and scales of economy continue to improve for large manufacturers.

Australia's only chance is to go large scale manufacture including export like Riviera did or capture a niche market like Buizen did.

I don't know what "enough boats" is; that's why I asked. Surely you don't need to be as big as Beneteau at their peak. Were Sydney profitable when they were churning out 41s and 38s and did they only fall over because they couldn't design other boats that the market wanted, or were costs always too high?

I was working in the industry in the '80s and it's sometimes hard to realise how many companies there used to be churning out boats. Part of the issue may be that these days to have the lifestyle many sailor/boatbuilders want (ie a "decent" boat of their own and a "decent" house) you have to earn more than other sailors are willing to pay you. Lots of guys in the industry used to own little JOG boats; now such boats are basically banned and if you want to race offshore or in the sort of boat you build, you need a banker's income to have your own competitive boat.

Re Sydney Yachts: Back in the Bashford days(mid 1990s) they produced a steady stream of BH 36s and 41s, probably one of each per month which is still very low volume in comparison to Hanse or Bavaria. They made money and Ian Bashford did well out of the business. They were also pumping out J24s and Etchells, plus they went through the Magic 25 and J-35 phase. It was still quite a small business and wasn't of the size where you have to be able to support lots of admin staff and general BS government compliance officers.

Around Bashford's death they started getting hammered by WorkCover which was a bit of a drain on them as they had to employ a full time OHS officer, and about a year after they hit the 100 employee number where costs spiral out of control in down months, of which there were a few. Plus they had moved to a large new facility which would have been expensive to rent.

Bashford's death was a massive loss for the business, he was a really unique type of guy, a Creator in the Ayn Rand sense. He could sell, and he would sail with new owners for a couple of races to ensure each owner's boat won at least a few races. I started there a couple of years after he died, but his talent, vision, determination and fortitude was obvious and evident in the legacy he left behind.

Post Bashford the company changed owners. A wealthy Sydney media and property magnate named Charles Curran heard of the companies' struggles and bought the firm. He later installed one of his executives to run the company. They had already tooled up for the Sydney 60(just before Bashford's death) of which they only sold 2 from memory; the first was the one with the ugly raised deck saloon and I think that was for Charles Curran, the second one kicked around the shed in a near completed state for over a year until a new owner was found. In fact, it went through three owners and was painted twice in the time I was working there and ended up as Yes! and went to Europe. Costly stuff. The Sydney 46 was tooled around the same time as the 60' and that sold reasonably well.

Their big moment came when they won the midsize slot for the Admirals Cup with the Sydney 40 which was, unfortunately, a total flop. I believe the politics surrounding the Sydney 40 led to the cancellation of the 2001 event and cost the firm millions as they pretty much paid teams to sail the boats. I think they only sold about 4 or five Sydney 40's and the remainder of the contracted 18 fleet were fire-saled some time after the 1999 Admirals cup.

The RORC committee made a big blunder choosing the Sydney 40 as other classes, like the Farr 40, were well established. Sydney promised to build 18 Sydney 40's for the regatta and would lease them to each team for 1 pound. The teams would have to pay for their own sails and navionics, but Sydney Yachts would purchase the used sails back from each team at the end of the regatta for something like 75% of the initial value. It was insane.

Sydney Yachts were so confident of the 40's future that they built two sets of hull moulds, and both stuck like s#it to a blanket when released from the plug.

One of the Sydney 40 moulds was modified into the Sydney 38 which sold well for them, and by mid 1999 they started getting into custom and semi-custom boats and did so until the end. Their first custom boat was Bumblebee V, which was featured here last week, on the beach near Byron Bay. Around this time Charles Curren admitted defeat and sold the firm to a group of investors, I think Ian Murray was one of them.

They later became part of the Azzura group and were doing custom and semi-custom boats along side their stock boats, but I think it was mainly custom and semi-custom work. The days of being a production polyester resin boat builder were over for the most part.

I was there for all of 1998 and 1999 and during that time they lost money on the balance and struggled to stay afloat. Their boats were really well built but they were aimed at the racing sector. I recall a few Sydney 36s that were built to go into charter with (I think Eastsail or Vicsail or something) and they were fitted with 'cruiser friendly' features like a fractional swept back spreader rig, a pedestal wheel and an anchor locker, but otherwise their signature yachts (the 36, 41 & 46) were high performance yachts designed to sail with a crew from, and back to a marina berth...ie no anchor locker or anchor roller, just a couple of deck cleats in the unlikely event of ever needing to anchor.

I can't speculate as to Bashford's thinking, but I assume his boats were a product of what he liked and he carved out a nice niche in the market which kind of evolved from the J boats which he built under license(J-24 & J-35). His niche was specifically: a high performance technical racing yacht with a nice interior, as opposed to a cruising yacht that could sail well. The Sydney 40' was obviously a departure from this as it was a Grand Prix yacht, and in that sector the Mumm 30's, Mumm 36's, Farr 40's, Corel 45's etc were the class leaders.

To get good/efficient at building yachts you have to build lots of them, you need volume. Sydney/Bashfords never built in the sort of volume that allowed for the massive investment required to set up rolling production lines, just-in-time inventory control, accurate pricing and the like. At Sydney Yachts it was a mystery what each boat cost to build, whilst Bavaria and Hanse probably know what each of their boats cost, down to the last screw.

Sydney built boats that people wanted, but they were boats that only a select few performance buyers wanted. Most people like a yacht that sails well with a husband and wife crew, and Bashfords/Sydney generally did not cater to that mass market. I can't remember the exact pricing, but I recall a figure of around $275,000 1998 dollars for a well specified Sydney 36 which was probably more than a Benetau of an equivalent size. The Sydney 36 only had quarterberths aft, a forward double bunk and one head, whilst a Euro yacht would have at least one aft cabin etc; the 41' had one aft cabin, one quarterberth, one head, one forward cabin, chain-plate tie rods that went down through the settee berths...a Euro yacht would have two aft cabins and possibly two heads etc.

I'm not sure what the shipping costs are for a yacht from Australia to Europe when balanced against the differential in labour costs between Australia and Europe, however I know the Europeans have access to a lot of Eastern European Eurotrash cheap labour, and they are naturally closer to their market.

It's interesting, and it's a shame.

Addit: It was EastSail who ordered the cruising Sydney 36:
www.eastsail.com.au/boat-hire/

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dism said..

nswsailor said..

I agree Yara, we costed a new build for a Top Hat, the moulds still exists, some years ago and it came out at over 100K

Yeah makes sense. Would be interested to see the breakdown on that, if you still have it nswsailor

I'll see if I can find it.

A great read Ashley, thanks for sharing!

The moulds for the Sydney 36 are in a paddock near here, I drive past them a couple of times a week!

Thanks for that Ashley. I had a little bit to do with Sydney Yachts but never got the full inside story. I think you're right about the way Bashford's boats evolved from the fairly minimalist interior style of the boats he started with. I wonder if they'd kept out of the "exotica" like the 60s and 40s they'd still be rattling along?

One other problem that may be making it hard for even Beneteau to do really well in the cruiser/racer market these days is that from about the 1980s, good cruiser/racer designs may have reached a point that arguably makes it hard to improve on earlier generations without using materials that make the boats too expensive. I've heard from a good source that Sydney Yachts hit that wall themselves. Something like the Sydney 36, Beneteau 36.7, 35 or J/109 isn't that much faster or roomier than a J/35, J/36, or Farr 11.6. Same with a Young 88 or Farr 1020; how much can you improve on them without going to carbon? You can give the newer boat more freeboard and waterline length to fit a tiny more more accommodation inside but because you're using largely the same materials, you end up with a heavier boat which costs more and doesn't go much better. It must be hard to get someone to pay four or five times as much for a boat that arguably has few major objective advantages over a good older boat.

One thing I always noticed about the BH and Sydney boats was that it seemed they'd only have needed a small tweak to make them much more cruiser-friendly, but that would probably have caused issues of its own.

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Ringle said..
She'd be pretty.

Expensive.