Not trying to name names, nor attack anyone, nor blame anyone... but I am stunned about what happened last night... I know there are many schools and instructors who do the right thing. But i think more care needs to be taken collectivelly when sending beginners out to venture on their own.
(Disclaimer: Dear beginner - we spoke at the beach last night - the reason i'm mentioning this is to create awareness and hopefully encourage people to take learning more seriously and prevent someone getting real hurt. As i told you in person after helping you last night, take extra precaution, and extra lessons, and you will eventually get there and have lots of fun without seriously hurting your self).
As i'm kiting back and forth at Apex park I can see Ashley (not their real name) taking very long time to setup. Ashley seemed like a begineer - very enthusiastic. Once setup Ashley approaches a dog walker and has a chat to them... then i see dog owner starting to raise kite and Ashley walking into launch position. Dog owner seems totally confused and like he's never held a kite before... They spend about 2 minutes like this messing around and Ashley trying to set her self into launch position. By the way this is on a beach that is 4 meters wide followed by big bushes, and then trees.
So I quickly ride back to the beach, and tell Ashley that i can help them launch, so Ahsley gets dog owner to land kite and thank them. I put my kite down, and then came had chat to Ashley... never launched on their own before... Ashley said they had 5hr lesson with a popular kite school from the posh side of the town. And apparently they told her to come to Altona to practice as it's more safer.
Ash's kite was underinflated, which i pointed out and I recommended to fix it. But Ashley was very excited and eager to have a go, so I didn't wanna be a party pooper (it was flyable). I then get Ashley to move bit further into water, and try launch - but the lines were crossed. We abort launch and Ashley fixes lines. We then have another go... At this point I still thought Ashley would know how to launch after 5 hours of lessons with WNKS (Well Known Kite School). But Ashley had no clue how to position into right Angle, but after battling with her kite, we somehow got right angle and Ashley manages to start launching. Kite goes up a bit, but then forward into power zone and hard forward faceplanting Ashley into water just before the beach, and the kite goes into bushes.
I run around and manage to grab kite. Lines tangled in bushes. Ashley now disconnected couple lines in order to untangle from the bush, and fixes it up again.
I still felt bad turning Ashley down, as they were so excited and happy about trying it again - but also seemed oblivious to the risk. One of my local kite companies intructor happend to be there as well now, so they gave some advice on letting the bar out etc etc.. So Ash now wants to try again, but i tell ash to now move further away from the shoreline and leave some room. We have another go... kite goes up...Ash lets the bar go.. but kite is not completely stabile (seems odd too - later Ash said they bought kite from america - Slingshot). Ash can't even reach the bar that's now out. Ash keeps battling with unstabile kite, kite starts going down again... Ash grabs one side of bar with one hand and pulls on it... 
... kite goes into powezone... Ash catapulted forward and thrashed through the water. Kite falls down. I start running towards kite... Kite gets launched somehow again... Ash grabs one side of bar again and pulls (i kept yelling to grab with both hands, but Ahs clearly couldn't reach - the bar is too far for Ash). Ash gets catapulted forward again and lands approx 3 meters before water edge in shallows... (mind you there is a concrete wall 5m infront followed by carpark). Kite slams full force onto the carpark (luckily between the cars, and no pedestrians walking). I ran out, managed to grab kite and land.
Had long chat with Ash and advised to not have any more goes. Whilst giving Ahs encouragement, I strongly empesized the potential dangeours, liability etc... mentioned poor blokes who ended up in coma last year etc etc, and advised that their setup is not right either... and to talk to kite school, and have proper shop check her gear and take more lessons. It seemed like Ash then decided to call it quits for the night.
Now, i do'nt understand this completely. If what Ash said is true, i do'nt understand how does a school send Ash off to venture on their own - and to kite at Altona (or Apex park) and classify that as good place to learn, as oposed to St Kilda which has massive beach etc etc... At least beginners should be instructed to go far over the sand bar long way away from the beach... This person was initially trying to get launched by a pedestrian on a 4m wide beach... would have ended up in trees for sure.
I'm also confused how the person coming out of lessons can seem to be oblivious to the risks. Seemed like they didn't really comperhand potential dangers as they were trying to launch for the first time on a small strip where only seasoned kiters go.
Kite schools... please take safety of others seriously. At least while we are still not banned - but seems like it's all coming to an end!
Established kiters... take notice of what's going on around you, and assist to prevent disasters.
Seeing two of these type of posts makes me think you are on the right path-all kiters need to keep an eye out for one another
Reminds me of a few weeks ago at Brighton seeing a couple of very enthusiastic guys with all new gear and no idea struggling on the beach. After talking through what to do and to be careful and "maybe another day " i was given a pretty bad look.. so also a bit of a note to beginners people are trying to help you and if they are a bit short i t may be because you are putting lives (yours, theirs, the public) in danger for what they see to be quite obvious. listen, put the kite down, have a chat and say thanks.
I think whilst kiting is an amazing sport it is also very dangerous if unaware, practicing in water rather than getting "body slammed on the beach" can help a bit...
I guess a shout out to people learning- ask for help, also dont be too proud- it can look easy and sometimes i know (myself include) people can be a bit blaze in self launching and wanting to just get out on the water but a silly question is better than making a mistake and potentially hurting yourself or others.
Keep an eye on each other, be aware and help each other out.
Helped a beginner once and posted here afterwards. Never again. I think that beginners expect experienced kiters to help them which is another mistake we all can make. You can get yourself into trouble, or the beginner may blame you for damaging their kite. They won't even thank you either.
People drown trying to save their friends from drowning. Same goes for kiting or any water sport.
If they are in serious trouble call 000.
Don't mind the odd launch or landing, even lending a pump, but if a guy cannot set up his lines properly steer clear or tell them to go away. If they don't sit back and watch it unfold.
Good to see all the beginners are recommeded to go to Altona and not to my local. No doubt the sport will see further bans or sanctions down there.
Bloody hell Superlizard, bloody scary situation going on there mate!
Great work in helping to keep her in one piece!
Glad to hear she got outta there in one piece, but sh!t man, those teachers obviously didn't drill it home hard enough, that kites are dangerous and will severely wreck you if you don't know what you are doing.
I am concerned that there are more crew getting into the sport because they are told "It's easy" and "Way safer now".
Sorry to sound like a prick, but hey, kiting has been around a good 15 years now, and unless you're a grom, if you're only just discovering kiting now, what rock have you been hiding under?!!
As kiting becomes more mainstream, the marketing of it becomes problematic, in that both schools and producers may be encouraging people who may not have had the edge for a sport like this to get into it.
But therein lies the problem - it is not rollerskating along Beaconsfeild Parade, but it is marketed as safe and simple.
I will never forget last Summer when [admin edit: WNKS] decided to descend upon Gnotuk with 40 plus beginners for a "Ride Day", on a frontal gusty WSW wind (see chart below).
Scary stuff, with such a high concentration of beginners in one spot and not to mention that kind of wind. They made it dangerous on both the beach and the water for local residents and regular riders.
It was an absolute shambles down there. Very inappropriate and unsafe situation.
The dangers of this sport should not be taken lightly. You will get wrecked if you are complacent.
Schools need to man up and face the facts - what you do and don't tell your students will stick in their heads for a long time.I hate to say it, but incidents like these are going to become a more common occurrence around Melbourne, so experienced kiters watch out and speak up.
Sir Stomp
I remember that day at Gnotuck St.
Set up in no boat zone with power lines, boat sheds etc downwind when there is sand dunes downwind 100m away. WTF kind of lesson /example is that.
Also see a lot of very new kiters self launching badly, kiters that can't even water start / edge!
It seems that the perception is that kites are not dangerous anymore and that's SCARY!!
Stay safe and use your brains people
I find it hard to believe that any of the schools are that bad?
Perhaps she did her lessons in the 2013/2014 season and then put the gear away for the winter? Just long enough to forget everything?
Select to expand quoteKiwiDave said...
I find it hard to believe that any of the schools are that bad
Cant just blame the schools, people have to be responsible and aware of their own actions.
It's like getting a drivers license, just because you passed it doesn't mean your ready to take on all and any driving conditions. If you are not aware of the dangers you will crash, getting a license becomes irrelevant .
Select to expand quotenigelw2 said...
Sir Stomp
I remember that day at Gnotuck St.
Set up in no boat zone with power lines, boat sheds etc downwind when there is sand dunes downwind 100m away. WTF kind of lesson /example is that.
Also see a lot of very new kiters self launching badly, kiters that can't even water start / edge!
It seems that the perception is that kites are not dangerous anymore and that's SCARY!!
Stay safe and use your brains people
I was there too that day and I agree it was a poor call and badly managed. One kite ended up in power lines. Same crew also had an altona day where a kiter broke her ankle.
From a beginners prospective. I am **** scared of the kite and the amount of power it can produce. I had my lessons (3 days in brazil on holiday) then bought some gear and got another 2 hour lesson so they could show me about the gear I bought. (all second hand from here and gumtree, lessons from KR)
Still struggle to land/launch the kite. Most times my girlfriend comes down with me and keeps an eye on me while studying/reading a book or something but she doesn't have the skills/will to help me launch. esp cause its a bit of a struggle in the wind I try to go in. (10kn - 15kn max) Everytime I've been by myself someone with some kite knowledge has been there (just walking a dog or wandering past not actually riding) to check my lines and help me launch. I would not hesitate to ask if I saw someone setting up near to help me check my lines and launch for me. But the idea of self launching is incredibility daunting as a beginner but something I guess I will have to do sooner rather than later.
I can't comment on quality of schools or anything but I will say in comparison to other similar sports I do (downhill biking/Snowboarding) the kite community is very understanding and helpful to beginners because the learning curve is so steep. All I hope is that the experienced riders keep going out of there way to help us newbies I definitely appreciate it and I really hope you don't hang beginners out to dry
:)
Here's a clue, if you hit the beach and the wind looks great but there is no one else out or the experienced kiters are all walking their dogs, maybe something is not right... Wind blowing offshore, gusty fronts, etc. Maybe you should not be going out especially a nooby on their own.
I was also at Gnotuk that day, my local, what a disaster. I was powered on a 7m at one point there where about 5 people with 12m in the air standing on a narrow beach close to the sea wall with kites at 12 o'clock waiting to see if the wind would change... All the regulars disappeared further down the beach away from the imminent carnage...
What would one expect from a WNKS where the instructors' kites get blown off across the beach, into their students' lines, or even tangling it on a sailboat... Yes, the instructor wrapped his kite around an anchored sailboat. I mean...
Almost every single time I was on the same beach as WNKS, at least one of their kites ended up in the bushes or got tangled with another kite. I had an opportunity to witness beginners being pushed out on their 10m+ while 15-20kn were blowing. But that's fine if the fronts coming wouldn't be as obvious. I witnessed a dozen beginners and experienced kiters being slammed onto the beach in rainy gusty winds of about 40kn+, everyone panicked, we ran to help the ones still hooked onto their kites, moms grabbing their kids' bars and then going into kite loops. I mean... Basics? Anyone?
In 8 years kiting in Europe I have never seen so much ignorance towards safety as I've witnessed here around Melbourne. Makes me sad and I would hope this would soon change for the better.
Newcomers, beginners (and anyone else in this great and fun sport), remember, nature will always kick your a$$ if you won't respect it's power.
I am sorry to put my bobs in here again, but being from Altona originally as a beginner thinking it was a good beginner beach, I too made some stupid mistakes there and luckily I lived to tell the tales!
But here's an idea....
Why not spare 10mins of your kite session before and after kiting, to simply stand at Altona beach looking out for possible disasters? You know, just spare a thought for others especially if you see obvious beginners practicing on their own. Unlike HighzaKite's selfish attitude kiters do mainly care and look out for each other.
How can one trust a kite school whose instructors don't take their students' safety into consideration? Do we really need to point out what kite school this kite belongs to?
Why is a beginner being pushed to practice upwind of anchored sailboats? Getting untangled with another kite is probably easier to manage than climbing up an expensive sailboat's mast (I'd still prefer noone would get tangled with another kite).
What am I missing?
I don't care what you think, but St Kilda is a **** spot to kite. Way over rated.
Select to expand quoteLoftywinds said..
I don't care what you think, but St Kilda is a **** spot to kite. Way over rated.
You're completely right and I couldn't agree more.
Select to expand quoteLoftywinds said..
I don't care what you think, but St Kilda is a **** spot to kite. Way over rated.
how do you rate townsville then mate. what are you are you doing in this section... everyone is probably sick of your trolling in all the other states.
Select to expand quotesurpher said..
How can one trust a kite school whose instructors don't take their students' safety into consideration? Do we really need to point out what kite school this kite belongs to?
Why is a beginner being pushed to practice upwind of anchored sailboats? Getting untangled with another kite is probably easier to manage than climbing up an expensive sailboat's mast (I'd still prefer noone would get tangled with another kite).
What am I missing?
I think you might be missing some facts. most of the schools are well to the right of the boat flotilla in this picture and in shallow water and the wind generally (seabreeze / SSW) comes from the left so they are also downwind.
I don't think that is a school kite but must have belonged to noobs anonymous (aka Loftywinds) which explains why he bolted to north qld but keeps posting in the vic section.
What facts? That that is a [admin edit: WNKS] instructor on the sailboat in KR red tshirt scratching his head how to get the kite down for the student? And that there's still the student waiting in water, I believe still hooked onto that kite as he's not drifting anywhere (I hope not, just oblivious and not knowing what to do?). What would a swimmer be doing about 15m from the boat in this weather? And the kite? It' [admin edit: WNKS] kite they use for their lessons?
But you're right, most of them are downwind of flotilla. But not this poor fella, as s/he was trying to waterstart.
Too crowded downwind of obstacles so it's better to go upwind? Seriously, this **** should not happen to a person paying for lessons.
Select to expand quoteHighzaKite said..Loftywinds said..
I don't care what you think, but St Kilda is a **** spot to kite. Way over rated.
how do you rate townsville then mate. what are you are you doing in this section... everyone is probably sick of your trolling in all the other states.
Ha. Funny coming from someone that only thinks of himself and has no defence for when I PM"d you about your lousy attitude to beginners or other kiters generally. Punks like you are what gives the entire sport a bad name and the bannings, council regs, etc. shall I go on?
Select to expand quoteHighzaKite said..
I don't think that is a school kite but must have belonged to noobs anonymous (aka Loftywinds) which explains why he bolted to north qld but keeps posting in the vic section.
LOL. Tell that to the WA kiters that just love taking over the General section! LOL
Oh yeah, some of my kites do end up down there thanks to nice paying customers of mine. So yeah it could be one of mine actually, but misused by those that should have known better. Unfortunately totally out of my hands. Oh but of course... I forgot it's out of your hands too since you don't give a toss about anyone but yourself.
This is going well.
The intent of this topic was about lesson & kiter safety, and to bring awareness. Unfortunately, it's quickly descended into taking pot-shots at various companies.
If you want to talk about safety, making it safter, then yeah - lets keep discussing, come up with new ideas for affecting the future - look to the future to make it better.
As the original poster (superlizard) said, the kiter was keen ... pretty sure we've all been at that point where our enthusiasm gets the better of us, and no amount of advice was going to stop you from heading out.
Advice: The last thing you want to hear, when you most need to hear it.
Select to expand quotesurpher said..
What facts? That that is a [admin edit: WNKS] instructor on the sailboat in KR red tshirt scratching his head how to get the kite down for the student? And that there's still the student waiting in water, I believe still hooked onto that kite as he's not drifting anywhere (I hope not, just oblivious and not knowing what to do?). What would a swimmer be doing about 15m from the boat in this weather? And the kite? It' [admin edit: WNKS] kite they use for their lessons?
But you're right, most of them are downwind of flotilla. But not this poor fella, as s/he was trying to waterstart.
Too crowded downwind of obstacles so it's better to go upwind? Seriously, this **** should not happen to a person paying for lessons.
OK I see the instructor now, maybe that was a westerly (?) looks like it from the direction of the waves. Still a not something you want happen during your lesson. I remember this happened to a Naish helix a few years back....
Select to expand quoteLoftywinds said..HighzaKite said..Loftywinds said..
I don't care what you think, but St Kilda is a **** spot to kite. Way over rated.
how do you rate townsville then mate. what are you are you doing in this section... everyone is probably sick of your trolling in all the other states.
Ha. Funny coming from someone that only thinks of himself and has no defence for when I PM"d you about your lousy attitude to beginners or other kiters generally. Punks like you are what gives the entire sport a bad name and the bannings, council regs, etc. shall I go on?
I don't respond to abusive PM's but I have a mind to republish it here to show everybody what a coward you are.
St Kilda is still arguably one of the safest spots to learn kiteboarding around Melbourne. Just enough shallow water and if s**t hits the fan you can still land relatively easy on the narrow beach downwind. Cool.
Is the popularity of the sport it's own enemy? Probably not. St Kilda over-crowded? Not really. "Not-a-beginner-anymore-as-I-can-ride-out-and-in-again" riding all the way back in and in between all the beginners (on StKilda), trying to jump those 20cm, not giving kiters launching and trying to get out the right of way? Yes.
The bigger problem still is sending beginners off with 5h "experience" (which mostly consists of standing behind an instructor or another student and watching what others are doing) out on their own with their brand new gear, saying "good luck". In all fairness it's probably not that black and white and schools, hopefully, do try to upsell. And because it is expensive...
Back to St Kilda specific... If schools would need more space for beginners as that would improve the outcome to their paying customers (and future safe riders), point it out. Claim the spot (that's okay!) and educate kiters still going there on where the "free passage" to the open water is. Preferably upwind of beginners so they have their own space free of obstacles. Maybe invest in a big "Kiteboarding rules" and "Rules on this beach" billboard? Something like the 10 FIS rules every single ski resort is sporting on each and every lift hut/building.
Select to expand quoteHighzaKite said..
OK I see the instructor now, maybe that was a westerly (?) looks like it from the direction of the waves. Still a not something you want happen during your lesson. I remember this happened to a Naish helix a few years back....
If it was westerlies, then the sailboat would have been upwind of the student.
But that's not the point. The point is (as we all agree), s**t like this should not happen. And paying customers that pay for kitesurfing lessons like these are then sent off on their own without any real "lessons", safety awareness or understanding of this great sport.
Select to expand quotewindsufering said..
Those kite schools must be doing alright ! It's still in a mast.
Or is that a new one further out? I only got a brief glimpse from a tram.
Select to expand quoteBig eeeZeee said..
where's saffer when you need him?
I know... this thread is missing his reserved and measured response ;-)
Select to expand quoteSaltySinus said..
Big eeeZeee said..
where's saffer when you need him?
I know... this thread is missing his reserved and measured response ;-)
+1
