Thinking Thoughts
The thoughts produced by the model are experimental
Here's a thinking process to arrive at the explanation comparing hooked-in vs. unhooked kiteloops:
Understand the Core Question: The user wants to know the difference in force generated by a hooked-in kiteloop versus an unhooked kiteloop.
Define the Terms:
Kiteloop: A maneuver where the kite is steered aggressively through the bottom of the wind window, often generating significant power and pull.
Hooked-in: The rider is connected to the kite's control bar via the harness and chicken loop. The rider's body weight and harness absorb the primary pull.
Unhooked: The rider disconnects the chicken loop from the harness hook and holds the bar directly. The pull goes entirely through the rider's arms and upper body.
Identify the Key Variables Affecting Force:
Kite size
Wind speed
Loop execution (speed, radius, position in the window)
Rider weight/skill
Line length
Crucially: How the force is transferred to the rider (hooked vs. unhooked).
Analyze the Force Generation Mechanism (Physics):
A kiteloop generates force primarily because the kite accelerates rapidly through the power zone (the central, lower part of the wind window).
This acceleration creates increased apparent wind speed over the kite's surface, leading to a significant spike in lift/pull.
The physics of the kite itself generating the pull is fundamentally the same regardless of whether the rider is hooked in or unhooked, assuming the loop is executed identically.
Compare Hooked-in vs. Unhooked - The Crucial Difference:
Hooked-in:
Force Path: Kite -> Lines -> Bar -> Chicken Loop -> Harness Hook -> Harness -> Rider's Core/Body.
Force Distribution: The strong harness distributes the load across the rider's torso and hips. The rider can use their body weight and leg strength to edge against the pull.
Perceived Force: While the peak force might be high, the rider can manage it more effectively using their whole body.
Loop Style: Often larger, more powered loops are possible because the rider can handle the pull. Can be used for big air jumps (megaloops).
Unhooked:
Force Path: Kite -> Lines -> Bar -> Rider's Arms/Shoulders/Upper Body.
Force Distribution: The entire load is taken directly by the arms and upper body. This is a much weaker connection point than the harness.
Perceived Force: Feels much more intense and direct, even if the absolute peak force from the kite were the same, because the arms are bearing the brunt.
Loop Style: Typically involves smaller, faster, lower loops (often called "low kite loops" or "handlepass loops"). The goal is often slack generation for handle passes, not maximum vertical lift. Riders cannot physically hold onto the same level of raw power unhooked as they can hooked in.
Depower: Critically, when unhooked, the rider loses the ability to sheet out (depower) the kite effectively by pushing the bar away. The kite is usually trimmed for a specific power level before unhooking. This means the rider must be able to handle the force generated at that trim setting.
Address the "How Much Force" Question Directly:
It's impossible to give specific Newton values without knowing all the variables (kite size, wind, etc.).
The peak force generated by the kite itself for an identically executed loop (same speed, radius, position in the window) would theoretically be the same.
However, the loops are rarely executed identically.
Unhooked loops are typically smaller, faster, and lower, often prioritizing slack generation over raw pull. They might generate a sharper, quicker spike but potentially a lower peak force than a fully powered hooked-in megaloop.
Hooked-in loops, especially megaloops, are often larger and designed to maximize power and lift, likely generating a higher absolute peak force.
The force experienced by the rider is vastly different due to the connection method. Unhooked feels much more violent and direct on the arms.
Synthesize and Structure the Answer:
Start with a direct comparison: The way the force is handled and perceived is the main difference, not necessarily the absolute peak force possible from the kite itself.
Explain the hooked-in scenario: Force transfer, ability to handle power, typical use (big air).
Explain the unhooked scenario: Force transfer, limitations, typical use (wakestyle, slack), perceived intensity.
Address the peak force question again: Explain why a direct numerical comparison is difficult and why the type of loop usually differs. Unhooked riders cannot hold the same raw power as hooked-in riders performing megaloops.
Add key takeaways/summary points: Perceived force vs. actual force, rider capacity, typical loop characteristics.
Mention safety: Unhooking requires significant skill and carries higher risks.
Refine Language: Use clear terms like "perceived force," "absolute force," "force distribution," "load." Ensure the distinction between the force the kite generates and the force the rider feels/handles is clear. Avoid definitive statements about which always generates more force, as it depends on the specific execution. Emphasize the rider's capacity difference.
Okay, let's break down the force involved in hooked-in vs. unhooked kiteloops. It's less about the kite generating fundamentally different amounts of force in isolation and more about how that force is managed, perceived, and the typical type of loop performed.
Here's the comparison:
Hooked-in Kiteloop:
Force Transfer: The force from the kite goes through the lines, bar, chicken loop, and directly into your harness hook. The harness distributes this load across your core, hips, and back.
Rider's Ability to Handle Force: Because the force is transferred to your body's core via the harness, you can use your entire body weight, leg strength, and edging technique to resist and manage significantly higher peak forces.
Typical Loop Style: Often larger, more powerful loops ("megaloops") designed for maximum height, hangtime, or forward pull. Riders can intentionally loop the kite aggressively through the most powerful part of the wind window because they can physically hold onto the power.
Depower Control: You retain full depower capability by sheeting the bar in and out. You can dump power instantly if needed by pushing the bar away.
Peak Force Potential: Can be very high, potentially generating forces several times the rider's body weight, especially during powerful megaloops in strong winds. This is because the rider can hold on and intentionally execute such powerful maneuvers.
Unhooked Kiteloop:
Force Transfer: The force from the kite goes through the lines and bar directly into your arms, shoulders, and upper body. There is no harness support.
Rider's Ability to Handle Force: You are limited by the strength of your arms and upper body. You simply cannot hold onto the same level of raw power unhooked as you can when hooked in.
Typical Loop Style: Usually smaller, faster, and often lower loops. They are frequently used in wakestyle riding to generate slack in the lines after the loop's power surge, allowing for handle passes. The loop itself might be sharp and quick, but it's generally not designed to generate the same massive, sustained pull as a hooked-in megaloop. Riders must perform loops within the power limits they can physically hold with their arms.
Depower Control: Significantly limited. Before unhooking, the kite is typically trimmed to a specific power setting. While there's a tiny bit of sheeting range left, you essentially lose the ability to quickly depower the kite by pushing the bar away. You have to handle the power the kite generates at its trimmed setting.
Peak Force Potential: While the loop can feel very aggressive and yank hard on the arms, the absolute peak force generated during a typical unhooked loop is generally lower than that of a fully powered hooked-in megaloop. This is primarily because the rider cannot physically sustain the forces required for a loop of equivalent power generation while unhooked. The loop is intentionally kept smaller or executed differently to stay within manageable limits for the arms.
Conclusion:
Perceived Force: An unhooked kiteloop often feels more violent and requires more raw arm strength because the force is concentrated there.
Absolute Peak Force: A powerful, fully committed hooked-in kiteloop (like a megaloop) generally generates a significantly higher absolute peak force than a typical unhooked kiteloop. This is because the rider, supported by the harness, can execute a larger, more powered loop.
It's not that the kite can't generate force unhooked, it's that the rider cannot manage the same level of force unhooked. Therefore, unhooked loops are typically performed in a way (smaller, faster, different window position) that generates less overall peak power than a maximum-effort hooked-in loop.
Okay, I understand you're looking for concrete numbers. However, providing exact, universal force figures (like "X Newtons") for kiteloops is extremely difficult, if not impossible, because the force generated is highly dynamic and depends heavily on numerous factors.
Think of it like asking "how much force does a punch generate?" It depends entirely on the boxer, the type of punch, the speed, etc.
Here are the key variables that drastically change the force:
Wind Speed: This is the biggest factor. Force increases roughly with the square of the wind speed (doubling wind speed roughly quadruples the force potential).
Kite Size: Larger kites generate more force.
Kite Design: Different kite models loop differently and generate power spikes differently.
Loop Size and Speed: A big, slow loop vs. a tight, fast loop vs. a megaloop low through the power zone.
Rider Weight: Influences how much resistance the rider provides and the dynamics of the jump/loop .
Rider Skill & Technique: How aggressively the kite is steered, sheeting angle (hooked-in), timing.
Line Length: Can influence turning speed and perceived power.
Trim Setting (Unhooked): The baseline power the kite is set to before unhooking.
However, we can talk in terms of estimations and multiples of bodyweight under typical scenarios:
Unhooked Kiteloop (Typical Wakestyle Scenario):
Limiting Factor: Rider's arm and upper body strength.
Goal: Often to generate temporary slack after the power spike for a handle pass. The loop itself is usually quick and not necessarily designed for maximum pull throughout.
Estimated Peak Force: Typically in the range of 1x to perhaps 2x the rider's bodyweight during the sharpest part of the pull. A very strong rider performing a powerful unhooked loop might momentarily exceed this, but it's physically demanding and limited by what arms can hold. For an 80kg rider, this is roughly 800 N to 1600 N (approx. 180 lbs to 360 lbs) of peak force, held entirely by the arms.
Hooked-in Kiteloop:
Limiting Factor: Rider's ability to edge, body positioning, and the structural limits of the gear (though rarely the limiting factor compared to rider control). The harness distributes the load.
Goal: Varies widely - height, hangtime (megaloop), forward momentum (downloop), transitions. Megaloops specifically aim for maximum power generation.
Estimated Peak Force (Standard Loop/Downloop): For moderate loops used in transitions or for some forward pull, the force might be in the range of 1.5x to 3x rider's bodyweight. For an 80kg rider, this is roughly 1200 N to 2400 N (approx. 270 lbs to 540 lbs).
Estimated Peak Force (Aggressive Megaloop in Strong Wind): This is where the numbers get significant. During a fully committed megaloop, sent low through the power zone in strong winds (e.g., 30+ knots), peak forces can potentially reach 3x to 5x (or even momentarily higher) the rider's bodyweight. For an 80kg rider, this could be 2400 N to 4000+ N (approx. 540 lbs to 900+ lbs). These are massive forces distributed through the harness.
In Summary:
While an unhooked loop feels violent because it yanks directly on your arms, a powerful hooked-in megaloop generally generates significantly higher absolute peak forces because the rider, supported by the harness, can intentionally execute a much more powerful maneuver and physically withstand the resulting pull.
It's crucial to remember these are estimations. Measuring the exact force would require specialized load sensors on the lines or chicken loop during the maneuver.
I can`t believe I just wasted 5 mega watts of brain power reading this ! ??
And typing a response !
A typical no wind sunday arvo haha .
Some how I don`t think you would of liked kiting 25 years ago !!
?
well 25 years ago i was mostly kiteing with holes in my kite with weights on the trailing edge ....
i liked it
particularly when indoors
maybe just 20 years ago
what were you doing kiteing 25 years ago?
did you have one of those funky little back straps and a semi circle 2 line kite with a solid leading edge 5 meters of fabric but utilised all 5 meters non stop the entire time making it pull you across the water equivelent to todays 8 meter kites?
did you ever ponder the human anatomy and exactly what muscle groups we use to perform particular kite manouvers? have you been seeking a partner that has the exact porportions to perform the most ultimate f16 in the hopes that one day she might just fly off like a rocket spiralling forever away with tiny little midget T rex like arms that cant extend at all and suuuper long smooth legs that bend and wrap around eeachother until they become one like some sort of mermaid constructed half out of red licorice whips that bald head for aerodynamics emitting one final star like super nova of a glisten as she disapears into the atmosphere
if you cant tell which of my posts is ai and which one is me talking utter **** you may need to see a doctor
in jamaica
the ai posts above show that its impossible to explain to ai just how much cooler a unhooked kiteloop is to a hooked in one its like computers can only percieve the unhooked loop to be those tiny little hooked in transition jump loops ala darkslides handdrags etc
the current state of proper unhooked kiteloops is so low its at risk of being lost forever an artform evaporateing right before our eyes slowly being washed out by our new ai overlords
you can crunch all the numbers you want or you can just simply get out there and throw a unhooked loop or a hooked one and the answer will be glareingly clear
but for numbers sake ill be attaching some little rockclimber dynos to my lines feed em into some sort of number churner like excel give it a little extra voltage and see what comes out
the reasoning for these numbers is purely for marketing for my new little invention that lets you loop 40% more/harder not just you but every old bag of potatoes thats ever held a kite for a fleeting moment
Select to expand quoteFroth Goth said..
?
well 25 years ago i was mostly kiteing with holes in my kite with weights on the trailing edge ....
i liked it
particularly when indoors
maybe just 20 years ago
what were you doing kiteing 25 years ago?
did you have one of those funky little back straps and a semi circle 2 line kite with a solid leading edge 5 meters of fabric but utilised all 5 meters non stop the entire time making it pull you across the water equivelent to todays 8 meter kites?
In a couple of months it will be 25 years of Kiting for me. And I started on a 4 line kite.
im now feeling a bit unsafe from all the ageism.
the thing i believe makes me a bit different to most kitesurfers is this.
i always hated kitesurfers...
my progression was skateing -- stunt kites -- power kites -- wake skateing ---wakeboarding -- kitesurfing ---- paragliding
but the thing that pushed me to skateing was playing rugby league from the age of 4! small country trown **** so i was in the under 9s for like 5 years thankfully skateing came along and all that came with moving to the city
i never really got to surf properly until like 2012
it might be the mdma speaking but this could be a good thread idea.... im gonna post it over to shooting the breeze
Unless you're still into wearing boardies over your wetsuit, and riding boots, don't bother with unhooked.
Go get your tips frosted and a pair of white rimmed wrap around mirrored sunnies
Unless you're still into wearing boardies over your wetsuit, and riding boots, don't bother with unhooked.
Go get your tips frosted and a pair of white rimmed wrap around mirrored sunnies
You need a pair of ski goggles, a massive impact vest, a Gath helmet and a 50cm high 3D printed handle, that's how you look like a core lord! Fck Un-Hooked!
Select to expand quotesir ROWDY said..
You need a pair of ski goggles, a massive impact vest, a Gath helmet and a 50cm high 3D printed handle, that's how you look like a core lord! Fck Un-Hooked!
Going to learn to crochet and hang this on my van door so people know what to expect in the sus bus 
Select to expand quoteChris_M said..
Unless you're still into wearing boardies over your wetsuit, and riding boots, don't bother with unhooked.
Go get your tips frosted and a pair of white rimmed wrap around mirrored sunnies
Do you have any idea how stupid i would look if i did a bottle o run and a quick milk cheese and bread thrift at woolys without boardys over my wetty?? Where would i put the keys and wallet? In my helmet?
