Forums > Kitesurfing General

The coaching helmet topic

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Created by SammyJ > 9 months ago, 28 Sep 2009
sir ROWDY
WA, 5366 posts
29 Sep 2009 12:03PM
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Nice one Miss Jessie! you can add a "Dame" infront of your name if you want.

WA Surf
WA, 336 posts
29 Sep 2009 12:42PM
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*Drumroll* And the mystery school is.......us!

SammyJ I don't know why you feel the need to even talk about this, but I'll add my 2c.

Just like Darren, and others, have said, each school uses the equipment and techniques that suits the location they teach at. Our spot is unique in the fact that when you're 5m (or 500m) off the beach you can still stand, unlike most of the spots where schools operate.

As Brack mentioned, we did get in a Headzone helmet for a while, to trial, but our instructors all agreed it added no merit to OUR lessons, and so WE don't use them at the moment.

We mention this on our website purely for marketing. Customers always shop around, and if they see that other schools use these "fancy walki-talkie helmet thingos" (and on their websites it is mentioned this is the perfect way to teach) then they might wonder why we don't use them? We stop them making assumptions, and spell it out on our website. If businesses didn't worry about what competitors are doing, they wouldn't be in business very long.

As Darren mentioned there is a lot of maintenance required. For his location it is an excellent teaching aid, for our location we feel it is unnecessary. Saying that, we have a helmet on order which we will be using for advanced lessons, and also board lessons (we feel this is the only time the customer gets far enough away where a coaching helment will come in handy).




odetojak
NSW, 54 posts
29 Sep 2009 3:16PM
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I think what isn't mentioned here is (regardless of the truth in it ) the sense of security felt by the beginner through being given it in the first place and wearing it - and the impact that has on your confidence when developing.

If you rock up to a lesson, and you're given a helmet and someone says, "i'll be able to give you instruction in case something goes wrong", that is very very reassuring. Beginning is about confidence as much as anything else. And if something does go wrong, you know you're going to end up a long way away from the guy standing on the beach yelling out something that you think might be along the lines of "push out the board.." or was that "push out the bar..?" "the bridle..?"

When i was learning and bodydragging away, further and further away from the instructor.. one of the hardest parts was getting my confidence up, and knowing how much i should push it.. so anything like this, that can make me feel more comfortable, is going to be a big bonus in my book.. and the added benefit of pushing me a bit harder real time, when the opportunity is there in my few hours of lesson time - even better.

Obviously instructor's shouldn't abuse them, and there will forever be, good and bad instructors.. but if used well.. it's a great aide from the learner's confidence level aspect, which ultimately will make a big difference in the speed of their development.



SammyJ
WA, 570 posts
29 Sep 2009 1:59PM
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waveslave said...

Well let's not stop at just helmets.
How about a dedicated crash-suit for learners ?
Seriously.
I'm talking about when students are dicking around on the beach learning to fly a fullsize real kite.
The crash-suit would consist of air-bag protection, heavy-duty padding, boots, body armour and helmet.
A human beachball flying a kite.



Good idea slave.... one of the smarter things you've ever typed

Anyway what happened to that wind Laurie promised

waveslave
WA, 4263 posts
29 Sep 2009 2:10PM
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What's the maximum range of a walkie-talkie helmet ?

SammyJ
WA, 570 posts
29 Sep 2009 2:18PM
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WA Surf said...


SammyJ I don't know why you feel the need to even talk about this, but I'll add my 2c.


The reason I feel the need is because I was checking out your site, I read some of your statements and thought it odd that you feel the need to explain why you don't use certain teaching aides. I didn't name you, I posted here to see if those that have learnt using them found it beneficial.

As usual it ends up being something the self proclaimed comedians attach themselves to and go onto make a goose of themselves.

The fact you and you instructors got all defensive and continue to justify those comments, does not detract from the fact that in the current situation you can't provide this resource to students if they feel it will enhance their experience. It would appear you would rather tell them that it's not necessary, purely because you don't have it. That's just how I see it and everyone will see it different I'm sure.

But I read your explaination below and now understand it's al about marketing, ultimately that is all a website is so thanks for clearing it all up. We can all now live happily ever after.

WA Surf said...
We mention this on our website purely for marketing. Customers always shop around, and if they see that other schools use these "fancy walki-talkie helmet thingos" (and on their websites it is mentioned this is the perfect way to teach) then they might wonder why we don't use them? We stop them making assumptions, and spell it out on our website. If businesses didn't worry about what competitors are doing, they wouldn't be in business very long.


Cheers Sam

SammyJ
WA, 570 posts
29 Sep 2009 2:19PM
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waveslave said...

What's the maximum range of a walkie-talkie helmet ?


I don't know, probably a couple of K's ...Any wind there yet

Trant
NSW, 601 posts
29 Sep 2009 4:22PM
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Probably a good way to tell an intermediate that s/he's tending to oversheet or to give advice when someone's trying to relaunch a kite. Not that useful in an emergency or when things are happening quickly.

To be honest I didn't even know these helmets existed for kitesurfing until I read this thread.

WA Surf
WA, 336 posts
29 Sep 2009 4:34PM
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Speaking of the helmets working for particular locations, heard a story from a Danish who spent the season down here in Safety Bay. He said in Venzuela, there was a school who operated at this spot that was always directly offshore. He said the instructors would give the students a coaching helmet, then set them off on their way, and they would sit down in a beachchair with binoculars and a beer, and coach them through the helmet until they got too far away, then go and pick them up in a rescue boat and do it all again!

Now thats a great way to teach...probably not the best lessons, but it would be great being an instructor at that school!

sleek1
VIC, 672 posts
29 Sep 2009 7:16PM
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Has the sport got harder than when i learnt? Because i dont see the need for intermediate lessons. My thoughts are if you are still having lessons then you are still a beginner.When i learnt tho it would have saved the instructers voice box, even tho he was yelling at me in french, by using a coaching helmet.Although it would not have made any difference ,me not understanding French.

Surflily
WA, 99 posts
29 Sep 2009 5:19PM
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Radio Helmet?

I have been teaching Kitesurfing Full Time for over 6 years now, when Im not running my school in Perth Im either instructing or managing a school over seas, I have worked in many schools around the world with different teaching methods.

It can be very demanding working as an instructor in extremely windy conditions, running sometimes.. sprinting down the beach, , freezing your ass off in some countries , , Frying your brain in others. Feeling awful for your students when they are having a bad time of it, It can sometimes be really frustrating, I guess the thing that bothered me the most was trying your best to yell loud enough for your student to hear you.

We have been using Headzone Radio Helmets in the school for two years now, Quality of lessons have improved big time as the students stay calm and relaxed without having an instructor yelling at them just to be heard over the wind, which can be taken the wrong way by some delicate individuals.
Gives students loads more confidence knowing someone is there for them every step of the way.
Instead of having to wait for the student to arrive back at the beach (sometimes is a very long wait and takes up too much time) We can instead give them instant instructions for correcting any problems calmly, therefore it speeds up the whole learning process providing them with heaps more instruction and progression in each lesson.
Everyones a winner!

Especially wonderful tool for teaching advanced moves, you can prompt while in progress then once landed give instant feedback! with out having to wait for them to return to the beach.

We start using the Helmets when the student enters the water for the first time, All Kite flying on the beach is done with the instructor holding onto the students harness.

I would find it really frustrating going back to the old ways now.
Love our Helmets, worth every cent!




getfunky
WA, 4485 posts
30 Sep 2009 6:22PM
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Sorry guys I came to this late.

For my 2c a good instructor is better than good gear.

My 1st lesson was with an absolute tool (I am not naming or confirming names - although it wasn't Darren & co. at AKS) who - contrary to my request - booked a shared lesson. This guy used helmet coms but the lesson was ultimately cr@p as the attitude of the instructor was suss, his communication skills NOT equipment were ordinary and he ultimately spent most of the lesson time with the other noob who was getting flogged - despite the instructor in his ear. Mind you half the time all you heard was the sound of the outboard engine right next to the tool instuctor anyway.

After that ordinary and frustrating experiance I then went to a great instructor (if you PM me I will let you know but i aint getting into a slag match here) and his M.O. was to paddle alongside - just upwind - on a surfski with no comms, so he was able to communicate clearly/easily and the communication skills and commitment of the instructor were FAR superior so i had fantastic lessons as a result. BTW - my lesson were back in 2004/2005 so i can't say if this is the way he still teaches but i know many who have learnt with him over recent years that are very happy.

Helmet coms can be good but don't make up your mind purely cause of the equipment they do/don't use. I reckon go talk to the school/instructor and get a vibe from them.

Good luck hombre.

Fooosh
WA, 563 posts
2 Oct 2009 4:30AM
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Positive helmet experience for me too but...

Agree with a lot of the above posters.

Lesson / Learning is a chain of events:

If instructor can't

analyse the subtleties of what you're doing
and then come up with a better way
and get that across to you by expressing it in a form you can understand
and hear in real time (helmet, next to you, surfski, megaphone)
and end up doing
[Repeat the loop]

The links of the lesson (and your improvement) are broken.

So I'd second GetFunky's comments about trying to suss out their skills in doing all the above first before parting with your $hundreds - whether or not they use helmets and whether or not they say they do/don't 2c.

arkgee
NSW, 639 posts
2 Oct 2009 8:33AM
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crackle,crackle....over n out

bobjaan
WA, 314 posts
2 Oct 2009 9:37AM
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"Posted 29/09/2009, 1:16 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think what isn't mentioned here is (regardless of the truth in it ) the sense of security felt by the beginner through being given it in the first place and wearing it - and the impact that has on your confidence when developing.

If you rock up to a lesson, and you're given a helmet and someone says, "i'll be able to give you instruction in case something goes wrong", that is very very reassuring. Beginning is about confidence as much as anything else.
"

Not sure I agree. If you look at learning Psychology it is all about getting a person to understand. and they go up in success from talking a person through something then showing them how to do it and then explaining the task while the student is performing it.

If your student is confident in what he is doing and has the concept in his / her head then you will have success. Purely talking too them will not teach them long term.

But like Darren said Helmets are just a teaching aid. and good intructors can progress a student with great technic. I think the value is in how much the intructor wants the student to learn and how much effort they put into keeping them safe.

Safety records help this.

My two cents

Saffer
VIC, 4501 posts
2 Oct 2009 12:36PM
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I think a lot of people are missing the point. I don't believe sammy was questioning whether or not Radio helmets are the holy grail of teaching, I think he was questioning the justification as to why the don't use them which seemed a little pointless to put on their webpage.

Everyone knows instruction should involve actual side by side instruction, but I do see value in these helmets for things like getting up on the board for the first time and body dragging where you can't be by the person's side 100% of the time. If you don't want to use it, fine, I don't see the point in knocking it as a training aid.

waveslave
WA, 4263 posts
2 Oct 2009 1:44PM
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What would be the problem if walkie-talkie helmets had 2-way communication ?

stamp
QLD, 2791 posts
2 Oct 2009 3:51PM
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sleek1 said...

.Although it would not have made any difference ,me not understanding French.


french? you can't even speak english sleek.........

sleek1
VIC, 672 posts
2 Oct 2009 4:26PM
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stamp said...

sleek1 said...

.Although it would not have made any difference ,me not understanding French.


french? you can't even speak english sleek.........




Can Too!!!!

sleek1
VIC, 672 posts
2 Oct 2009 4:27PM
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stamp said...

sleek1 said...

.Although it would not have made any difference ,me not understanding French.


french? you can't even speak english sleek.........




CAN TOO!!!

Kitehard
WA, 2782 posts
Site Sponsor
2 Oct 2009 3:44PM
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Hi peeps,

@ 'slave. The radio helmets have a range of around 4km although we ask for them to have the transmission power turned down so we have half power (2km) and double battery duration, this is still massive overkill as students with radios are rarely more than 50-100m away. Our instructors walk along the beach with the students so we can be there close enough to catch the subtle reasons for not succeeding in the given task in order to apply corrective instruction.

Headzone have a waterproof 2 way communication model in the testing phase at present for a contract deal with Yamaha jet ski's. They will be similar to Honda Goldwing motorcycles where they have a communication system so the pillion rider can chat with the rider through 2 way comms in the helmets. So will be the new 2 way system for water sports instruction, only wireless.

It would be great to have 2 way communication with the students rather than the one way current models, but difficulties are durability and reliability. Salt water is nasty around electronics [}:)] and students/instructors are rough on gear.

@some others: Interesting that some people who are not instructors and have neither seen nor used the radio helmets in a lesson situation are offering opinions on their effectiveness and worth in kitesurfing lessons.

Cheers,

KH

Charl dv
WA, 2485 posts
2 Oct 2009 4:12PM
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have to agree here, your input on whether or not a radio can be an effective tool used in teaching can really only be credible if A) you yourself has taught using both methods or perhaps B) you have been taught by instructors of equal quality/ability using both methods.

as for two way systems it would have to be continually on as the use of a communication button (to enable / disable the microphone) would be a hard task for a student trying to relaunch a kite or what ever while in water.. having it continually on would be anoying and im sure instructors dont want to listen to students swearing and screaming haha...

but on a serious note im pretty sure the initial question of this thread has been asked and a valid response was given by the school in question.

waveslave
WA, 4263 posts
2 Oct 2009 4:21PM
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Kite-dragging schools who use walkie-talkie helmets charge more for lessons.

Surflily
WA, 99 posts
2 Oct 2009 8:04PM
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Not True Waveslave, well we dont

waveslave
WA, 4263 posts
2 Oct 2009 8:15PM
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Hi Surflily,
Show me your charges. ^^

sleek1
VIC, 672 posts
2 Oct 2009 11:19PM
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Kitehard said...


Headzone have a waterproof 2 way communication model in the testing phase at present for a contract deal with Yamaha jet ski's. They will be similar to Honda Goldwing motorcycles where they have a communication system so the pillion rider can chat with the rider through 2 way comms in the helmets. So will be the new 2 way system for water sports instruction, only wireless.




warning this post has nothing to do with this subject, but you lost cred with me because you used a Honda Goldwing as example.

waveslave
WA, 4263 posts
2 Oct 2009 9:35PM
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You know what's funny ?
Kite-dragging schools are funny.
And Surfing schools are even funnier.
Those stupid surfing-the-foam-on-a-big-spongeboard schools are hilarious.
Also the rivalry between kite-dragging schools is funny...
and bitchy.
*wink
And my town that I live in...
The town with the 4 surfshops but no kitestore...
Not even a lame poleshop...
(The dedicated bodyboard shop went bust)...
The town that's one of the fastest growth regions in Oz...
On a (growth) par with Hervey Bay, Qld...
One of the best spots in the World to learn to kite...
Acres of smooth, flatwater,
sideshore breeze, knee-deep and ridiculously easy,
stupidly safe...
Well, there's no kite-dragging school here.
None.
The crew teach each other like mates do.
It's like the good old days.
Funny, hey ?

Surflily
WA, 99 posts
3 Oct 2009 8:11AM
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waveslave said...

Hi Surflily,
Show me your charges. ^^

Hi Waveslave, Since we introduced the helmets the quality of our lessons have improved significantly. So are they a selling point? YES
Are they a reason to increase our prices? NO!
We aim to be competitive, so are our prices. Feel free to look at our prices on the website elementalkiteboarding.com/

sleek1
VIC, 672 posts
3 Oct 2009 11:09AM
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waveslave said...

You know what's funny ?
Kite-dragging schools are funny.
And Surfing schools are even funnier.
Those stupid surfing-the-foam-on-a-big-spongeboard schools are hilarious.
Also the rivalry between kite-dragging schools is funny...
and bitchy.
*wink
And my town that I live in...
The town with the 4 surfshops but no kitestore...
Not even a lame poleshop...
(The dedicated bodyboard shop went bust)...
The town that's one of the fastest growth regions in Oz...
On a (growth) par with Hervey Bay, Qld...
One of the best spots in the World to learn to kite...
Acres of smooth, flatwater,
sideshore breeze, knee-deep and ridiculously easy,
stupidly safe...
Well, there's no kite-dragging school here.
None.
The crew teach each other like mates do.
It's like the good old days.
Funny, hey ?


true.I have sent people to well known schools,because i am not the teaching type, and all were taught was to come back for more lessons. $$$$$ ..so i teach them how to setup and they are on there way.

gordknot
NSW, 148 posts
3 Oct 2009 11:41AM
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This is off topic, but is there anyone out there that thinks it's ok to learn on your own? Yes you get hammered, but you learn about wind, kite, self launch and land in a solid way.... Radio helmets?? Guess the wah-mbulance is always at the ready too..



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"The coaching helmet topic" started by SammyJ