Charl dv, I agree on the snowboarding side that RRP online is way cheaper.
In Germany the wages are higher but the productivity in manufacturing is much much more productive and they are union too. They also get a LOT more workplace and industry training free of charge.
You would be surprised that in Italy wages are quite high as well (there economy has bombed out). But you would be surprised that the biggest exporter for Italy is not clothes. No its robotics for the manufacturing industry. They supply very high end spray robots and manufacturing robots including the programming design and installation.
In Aus yes our wages are very high but we need to match this with productivity. The best way to make a workplace more productive is to give your workers enhanced skills and knowledge.
Again these countries are competing on a world stage not in their own country we need to change our thinking.
Select to expand quoteeppo said..
Lessons I'd predict nay be their main form of cash flow...??
Hey Eppo,
You must be kidding right? 50% of our lesson fee goes to the instructor. The costs of running the school; upgrading and upkeep of radio's, boat and motor, maintenance on the trailer, rego, insurance, council permits, wear and tear on kites and gear throughout the year, etc. By the time we cover costs, there is nothing left. We then subsidize lessons with discounts on kite packages. There isn't much money in that either.
The only way to make a school profitable, is to cut corners and pay peanuts (Pay peanuts, get monkeys). Many do this and make reasonable income, unfortunately, we aren't one of them. It's not all about money. I also spend 6 hours per week teaching free SUP lessons up at 4:30am three days a week. This service runs a loss but is there for the good of the sport and I like to train and am happy to impart my knowledge for free. This is open to all persons, not just my customers. Most shops give a lot back to the community that the community either expect, or aren't aware of.
I've recently had my business professionally valued and it was described as an "under performing business when compared to stock levels against return". Much of what we do is fueled by passion and love of the sports. If you think we're getting rich, or even well paid, you are sorely mistaken.
DM
Select to expand quoteEmanjay said..
$100 per hour and half goes to instructor. Sign me up 
You only get paid when you work, still interested? Takes a special person to teach kitesurfing in my experience, and a good head instructor for a school is hard to find and a bad one can ruin things quickly.
Select to expand quoteActionSportsWA said...eppo said..
Lessons I'd predict nay be their main form of cash flow...??
Hey Eppo,
You must be kidding right? 50% of our lesson fee goes to the instructor. The costs of running the school; upgrading and upkeep of radio's, boat and motor, maintenance on the trailer, rego, insurance, council permits, wear and tear on kites and gear throughout the year, etc. By the time we cover costs, there is nothing left. We then subsidize lessons with discounts on kite packages. There isn't much money in that either.
The only way to make a school profitable, is to cut corners and pay peanuts (Pay peanuts, get monkeys). Many do this and make reasonable income, unfortunately, we aren't one of them. It's not all about money. I also spend 6 hours per week teaching free SUP lessons up at 4:30am three days a week. This service runs a loss but is there for the good of the sport and I like to train and am happy to impart my knowledge for free. This is open to all persons, not just my customers. Most shops give a lot back to the community that the community either expect, or aren't aware of.
I've recently had my business professionally valued and it was described as an "under performing business when compared to stock levels against return". Much of what we do is fueled by passion and love of the sports. If you think we're getting rich, or even well paid, you are sorely mistaken.
DM
Righto that's why I had question marks and maybes. Never said you were getting rich that's for sure. Good discussion I think especially like the input from retailers, educated us all and makes a stronger case for buying local when ya can.
Happy couldn't agree more we can't just keep digging big holes in the ground and getting value added goods sent back to us significantly marked up. Not too mention being slaves tothe commodity markets.
also honesty, look at lets say a shops website, then you put a bit of pressure on him and hey presto he massively reduces it, call me old fashioned but I don't trust anyone who tries to shaft me 1st up, and that's why I buy from who I buy from,as the saying goes do you get a receipt from the friends that you buy,
So I'm in the market for 2 new kites.
Went & saw the shop negotiated a price kite only.
I keep getting emails from the manufacturer advertising the same kite at better pricing and including a bar....
I want to support the local bloke, but there is a significant saving by buying online....
????????
Select to expand quoteActionSportsWA said..eppo said..
Lessons I'd predict nay be their main form of cash flow...??
Hey Eppo,
You must be kidding right? 50% of our lesson fee goes to the instructor. The costs of running the school; upgrading and upkeep of radio's, boat and motor, maintenance on the trailer, rego, insurance, council permits, wear and tear on kites and gear throughout the year, etc. By the time we cover costs, there is nothing left. We then subsidize lessons with discounts on kite packages. There isn't much money in that either.
The only way to make a school profitable, is to cut corners and pay peanuts (Pay peanuts, get monkeys). Many do this and make reasonable income, unfortunately, we aren't one of them. It's not all about money. I also spend 6 hours per week teaching free SUP lessons up at 4:30am three days a week. This service runs a loss but is there for the good of the sport and I like to train and am happy to impart my knowledge for free. This is open to all persons, not just my customers. Most shops give a lot back to the community that the community either expect, or aren't aware of.
I've recently had my business professionally valued and it was described as an "under performing business when compared to stock levels against return". Much of what we do is fueled by passion and love of the sports. If you think we're getting rich, or even well paid, you are sorely mistaken.
DM
Well said Darren.
I think the other thing to take into account is that the sport is seasonal, come winter time and lessons are few and far between if possible at all and sales are exactly the same.
It is definitely for the love of the sport.
I definitely couldn't keep running without a second job.
Select to expand quotecauncy said..
also honesty, look at lets say a shops website, then you put a bit of pressure on him and hey presto he massively reduces it, call me old fashioned but I don't trust anyone who tries to shaft me 1st up, and that's why I buy from who I buy from,as the saying goes do you get a receipt from the friends that you buy,
That occurs for 2 reasons.
1) The manufacturer does not allow any price other than RRP to be advertised on line. If the shop advertises huge discounts then they can stand to loose their dealership.
2) Some people are prepaired to pay RRP. So if you advertise constantly discounted price then you are giving away margin you could potentially get. The problem advertising at full retail is you will loose sales to the bargin hunters.
A good salesman will be able to assess the customer and offer the appropriate solution for that customer. That could in the form of a discount or selling them the benifits of different product/service to get the deal done.
I'm in business for myself and i sympathise with the shops, on average businesses make about 10% when it all washes out at the end of the year. Some more, a lot are less than that (i dont know about kite shops but i imagine the smaller shops make less than glorified wages) and when all is said and done sometimes i think it would be easier and a less stressful to just be on wages (not that i could ever do that)
The amount of stress and pressure on a shop owner is huge and with these guys giving their time away for free to help the sport i defiantly commend them, i understand that they have to do this to help drive sales but the energy outlayed vs reward is just not there (personally i wouldn't do it and not many people would) To me a kite shop is all about the passion and the sport, i have three in my local area and i am buggered as to how there is enough business to support them all.
So to all you shop owners out there getting of your backsides and doing something i say thank you.
As Darren has eluded to, we don't do this because it gets us rich. It's a lifestyle choice, and I personally love it. If I wanted to be making $100k a year, the last thing I would have done would be to purchase a kite shop and school. But when "work" is to go kiting to demo new kites, or see the stoke from a newbie... that's worth it.
Next time you buy a kite, remember that every $ that you get off your kite price is coming out of our already relatively empty pockets. If you think it is any different to that, you're dreaming :)
Now stop posting on seabreeze and go kiting, it's windy!!! (in perth, at least)
Drew @ WA Surf
Select to expand quoteDrewm said..
Next time you buy a kite, remember that every $ that you get off your kite price is coming out of our already relatively empty pockets. If you think it is any different to that, you're dreaming :)
Sorry bud. But that's absolutely the wrong way of looking at it. Every dollar you make over and above your cost price goes towards paying your bills and putting bread on your table. If you think any different then perhaps your shouldn't be in business.
If you discount a product you have done so to achieve a sale you would have otherwise lost. loosing a sale gives you nothing. You should be glad that you did a deal and made the sale then look at ways to value add, get additional sales of other products.....
In the end the market will decide what the price should be.
Apply this methodolligy.
If you win every sale.... you are too cheap... add some margin.
If you loose most sales... your too expensive.. drop some margin.
If you win most sales then that's just about right.
Ah the wonders of the internet forums and the ease of misinterpretation. I think perhaps I could have worded that better...
Let me rephrase. We don't make much money. The time we spend with one customer to sell them a product at a discount, there's a chance that time could be spent with a customer who may have paid a higher price. I personally know plenty of tradies who say no if customers want a job done too cheap, because they could spend their time and effort with another customer who is willing to pay a little more for the same job.
I'm not too fussed how this is perceived on an online forum, it was simply an attempt to help those who don't know understand that kite shop owners (as a generalisation) aren't setting out to rip anyone off by charging retail. We're just trying to make a bit of a living out of a sport we love :)
Drew
Select to expand quoteDrewm said..
Ah the wonders of the internet forums and the ease of misinterpretation. I think perhaps I could have worded that better...
Let me rephrase. We don't make much money. The time we spend with one customer to sell them a product at a discount, there's a chance that time could be spent with a customer who may have paid a higher price. I personally know plenty of tradies who say no if customers want a job done too cheap, because they could spend their time and effort with another customer who is willing to pay a little more for the same job.
I'm not too fussed how this is perceived on an online forum, it was simply an attempt to help those who don't know understand that kite shop owners (as a generalisation) aren't setting out to rip anyone off by charging retail. We're just trying to make a bit of a living out of a sport we love :)
Drew
Fair play. I certainly don't think kite shop owners are out their to rip people off.... They are out there to make a crust and do what they love doing. Full credit to those people that do that. I would love too.... but I have done that maths and I cannot see how I would make enough $$ to support my family.
Maybe when the kids have left home? ....
Anyway Qudos to the dudes that put all on the line and do what they love.
Select to expand quotePlummet said..
well saideppo said..goog64 said..
Buy for $60, sell for $100, you have made 66.7% gross profit on your buy price.
Well done young man, now where is my good work stamp.
Nah that's an F for fail! Go straight to jail and do not collect $200.
Its a 66.7% mark up.
40% gross profit!
Now thats enough about percentages from me. Its not a maths forum so lets move on.
Select to expand quoteActionSportsWA said..eppo said..
Lessons I'd predict nay be their main form of cash flow...??
Hey Eppo,
You must be kidding right? 50% of our lesson fee goes to the instructor. The costs of running the school; upgrading and upkeep of radio's, boat and motor, maintenance on the trailer, rego, insurance, council permits, wear and tear on kites and gear throughout the year, etc. By the time we cover costs, there is nothing left. We then subsidize lessons with discounts on kite packages. There isn't much money in that either.
The only way to make a school profitable, is to cut corners and pay peanuts (Pay peanuts, get monkeys). Many do this and make reasonable income, unfortunately, we aren't one of them. It's not all about money. I also spend 6 hours per week teaching free SUP lessons up at 4:30am three days a week. This service runs a loss but is there for the good of the sport and I like to train and am happy to impart my knowledge for free. This is open to all persons, not just my customers. Most shops give a lot back to the community that the community either expect, or aren't aware of.
I've recently had my business professionally valued and it was described as an "under performing business when compared to stock levels against return". Much of what we do is fueled by passion and love of the sports. If you think we're getting rich, or even well paid, you are sorely mistaken.
DM
well Said
Select to expand quotePlummet said..cauncy said..
also honesty, look at lets say a shops website, then you put a bit of pressure on him and hey presto he massively reduces it, call me old fashioned but I don't trust anyone who tries to shaft me 1st up, and that's why I buy from who I buy from,as the saying goes do you get a receipt from the friends that you buy,
That occurs for 2 reasons.
1) The manufacturer does not allow any price other than RRP to be advertised on line. If the shop advertises huge discounts then they can stand to loose their dealership.
2) Some people are prepaired to pay RRP. So if you advertise constantly discounted price then you are giving away margin you could potentially get. The problem advertising at full retail is you will loose sales to the bargin hunters.
A good salesman will be able to assess the customer and offer the appropriate solution for that customer. That could in the form of a discount or selling them the benifits of different product/service to get the deal done.
not the shop I buy from plumms, hes totally ozone, nothing else, I don't ask him for discount cause when I do the conversions im saving heaps, for example last year I was quoted just under $6000 for a 7 10 edge and a new zeph complete from the so called biggest kite retailerof which took approx. 4 calls to get an answer,however delivered with paying gst import I payed $4200 from the retailer ive dealt with for years from the uk, then just before xmas I received a package, inside was ozone thermal rashie x2 fleece jacket x2 ozone flags and windsocks, with a little note thanking me for my support, would I get this from here I think not, also im not into paying an extra $ 2000 for a false smile and wave from my shop owner, but one of the main reasons if you do shop local is look at your dealers onwater capabilities if he doesn't rip any info is totally useless imho
Select to expand quotePlummet said..cauncy said..
also honesty, look at lets say a shops website, then you put a bit of pressure on him and hey presto he massively reduces it, call me old fashioned but I don't trust anyone who tries to shaft me 1st up, and that's why I buy from who I buy from,as the saying goes do you get a receipt from the friends that you buy,
That occurs for 2 reasons.
1) The manufacturer does not allow any price other than RRP to be advertised on line. If the shop advertises huge discounts then they can stand to loose their dealership.
2) Some people are prepaired to pay RRP. So if you advertise constantly discounted price then you are giving away margin you could potentially get. The problem advertising at full retail is you will loose sales to the bargin hunters.
A good salesman will be able to assess the customer and offer the appropriate solution for that customer. That could in the form of a discount or selling them the benifits of different product/service to get the deal done.
also i don't trust salesmen plumms, as for retailers losing their dealership heres a good one for you, a local surfer who I work with bought the top of the range aussie branded wetsuit just before winter, he got it direct from nsw for $560 ish, the guy I deal with in the uk for my mystic suits could do the exact same suit delivered for $290, but isn't allowed to sell back to Australia, WTF, so you support your home brand whos quite happy to sell it to foreigners cheaper than its own country of origin, to say he was pissed was an understatement
I think one of the more difficult things to manage in a kiting shop (and many other retail forms) is depreciating stock. You would have a fairly brief window to sell this seasons kit before people start to hear about next seasons latest and greatest and hang off, effectively consigning stock to be sold at reduced prizes.
I don't know if the manufacturers give any stock protection, but for the amount of capital tied up in stock, I reckon this would hurt! Many many moons ago I sold computers and the balance sheet would just get killed with provisions for depreciated stock we couldn't sell before the next best thing rocked up.
A wine shop might be the go, at least the stuff appreciates with age. But then i might drink it all and there's another problem haha!
I worked in a bicycle shop for 10 years and the mark up was around 100%, it obviously got smaller when the retail price increased. Our best customers and most loyal were over 40 years old with disposable incomes. I assume most people here are in that age group category.
With overhead such as wages, rent, and utilities there was some room to make a profit but at some stages struggled. One post here said MTB parts are cheaper online so I buy them but I support my local kite shop. Another said snow gear is cheaper online but I support my local kite shop. Sorry but I dont see any difference. (its the same with electronic goods, clothes, ect)
I understand why people buy online, everyone wants to feel like they got a bargain, whether its a cheap case of beer or a a cheap kite. Also the younger generation dont have disposable income like the 40+ year olds and 200, 300, 400, 500 discount online is too irresistible to say no to. Thats fair enough, I understand why they wouldnt pay that much. They also look at the older generation and say they are stupid to pay those prices!
Retail is going online, like it or not. To be competitive you must consider a retail side (BWS kites, no one has said a bad word about them here, yet companies like this are half, if not more of the problem to retailers??)
Other options is to target a certain audience, such as 40+ year olds who dont mind paying for service and can afford it. By this, stock certain types of products (SUPs being one of them).
What surprises me a little is most people here would ride North/BWS/Naish/Cab kite surfboards. Why not sugarcube, Colin Earl Katanna (Too many to list) and support their livelihoods also.
IM NOT KNOCKING ANYONE WHO BUYS ONLINE, I do it, im not ashamed on doing of doing it, its the way of the future, in fact that futures here. Retail shops cant blame the consumers, they have to adjust with the times and see opportunity in the changing times. Or simply find another way to make money.
Oh I hope you all drive holdens or fords!
Oh and lastly. Some rrp recommended retail prices are not allowed to be advertised any less by shops or they loose their dealership. They can sell cheaper but not advertise less on current stock. This stops shop under cutting prices to sell more volume. Shops also get a bad name if customers regularly come in to one shop saying x shop offered it to me at this price can you beat it.
One for the shop owners,
The Australian Taxation Office suspected a kite shop owner wasn't paying proper wages to his instructors and sent an agent to investigate him.
ATO AUDITOR:
"I need a list of your employees and how much you pay them".
KITE SHOP OWNER:
"Well, there's Steve, my instructor, he's been with me for 3 years. I pay him $50 a hour, plus free room and board.
Then there's the mentally challenged guy. He works about 18 hours every day and does about 90% of the work around here.
He makes about $10 per week, pays his own room and board, and I buy him a bottle of Bundaberg rum and a dozen Crown Lagers every Saturday night so he can cope with life.
He also gets to sleep with my wife occasionally".
ATO AUDITOR:
"That's the guy I want to talk to - the mentally challenged one".
KITE SHOP OWNER:
"That'll be me. What'd you want to know"?
Why the red thumb (which is gone now)? it is a humorous way to show how tough it is in retail...or is someone too mentally challenged to get his point?
Guys I concur with you all, and I think to stay afloat as a business you MUST build very good reputation. The "joke" (note quotes!) above is true. My wife runs a business from home and she's lucky to make $100 this year after all costs, training, licensing, registrations, software licensing, and gov licensing... (did I mention the word licensing enough! Grrr @ gov red tape!) have been paid out. Oh and people think we're rich because we also have property investments as well. I will smack anyone that says "oh you run a business... oh you have property... oh you must be rich". 
time for the 3rd change - started as windsurfing stores, changed to kitesurfing stores, now turn em into sup stores...
yeah i was expecting more of a split crowd, i tried to make it as PC as possible, At least eppo and aussie got it,
I did the small business thing myself for a few years, take my hat off to the guys who keep at it, yes its a small market but those willing to put in the hours and give the service that keeps the sales flowing are the ones who will always have a place, no they wont make millions but that may just be what they want in life
At least you are working for yourself in this case an industry you dig. You should see the tosses I deal with on a daily basis!!
