Select to expand quotePuetz said...
... I thought of this ages ago but had no idea how it could be implemented but a sort of fuse device that lets go when reached a predetermined pressure. You see fuses in all electrical equipment, so how can we put one in a bar/chickenloop/kite or even harness??
I've got no idea how you could 'fuse' a kite but wouldn't that be a good idea??? Making it independant of rider input is most important. When triggered, goes to one line sort of deal.
I assume it would have to be rider weight specific too so that complicates things too and not trigger prematurely when your pushing your riding (eg say kite loops).
Any one think this is an idea to pursue?? Any ideas???
cheers,
Robbie 
ps man the old core chicken loop has some bad numbers,,,, yikes,,, I used to own one of them, not many people can lift 49kg with one hand!!! 
The forces in a lofting are identical to booooooooosting. No QR, device or fuse will ever be able to tell the difference.
there was a quick release spreader bar made a few years ago - slingshot ??
saved me one day, hit the trigger and bang - kite flagged out
but they would fatigue and snapped 2 of them - one when giving a mates kite a try - he wasnt happy with the birds nest
i agree for need to engineer in more redundant safety systems that allow for back up QR
Some harnesses have a quick release type setup on the harness itself, one that you pull and your entire harness will come off and fly away with the kite. I think this is the best option as it's a sure way to ditch it all without stuff catching up if it doesn't work out. More brands should adopt this approach I think as it would be easy to get to and the most effective.
UlSelect to expand quoteChris6791 said..Puetz said...
... I thought of this ages ago but had no idea how it could be implemented but a sort of fuse device that lets go when reached a predetermined pressure. You see fuses in all electrical equipment, so how can we put one in a bar/chickenloop/kite or even harness??
I've got no idea how you could 'fuse' a kite but wouldn't that be a good idea??? Making it independant of rider input is most important. When triggered, goes to one line sort of deal.
I assume it would have to be rider weight specific too so that complicates things too and not trigger prematurely when your pushing your riding (eg say kite loops).
Any one think this is an idea to pursue?? Any ideas???
cheers,
Robbie
ps man the old core chicken loop has some bad numbers,,,, yikes,,, I used to own one of them, not many people can lift 49kg with one hand!!!
The forces in a lofting are identical to booooooooosting. No QR, device or fuse will ever be able to tell the difference.
What is required is a mechanical(excuse the term) deadman release. So a safety that releases when an individual is no longer in control. Like on a lawnmower having to hold a lever up. let the lever go and the mower stops. or with a jet ski when the ride falls off the key pulls out at the ski stops...
I'm racking my brain to figure out how to do it effectively. But its pretty damn hard. I guess the reason we don't have mechanical deadman releases now is because no one has figured out how to do it.
With hooked, unhooked riding one handed, no hands, hands in the middle hands at the side, handle passes etc there are so many configurations used that make a deadman handle not really an option.
I agree with Sir Rowdy and as he says the technology is already there - at least for waist harnesses. Seat harness would be more difficult.
That is the backup system to cover some potential screw-ups of other systems.
For people using a hook, a properly engineered quick release hook would be a good solution. I haven't seen one yet but it can be done relatively easily.
For sliding harnesses like the dynabar there would have to be a different type of release, but again, it could be incorporated into the harness.
Slingshot did have the "Sure Fire" harness hook available from about 2006 onwards.
This was an amazingly simple and super safe system I used for all of that time.
Probably the greatest safety innovation in our industry has been the almost universal adoption of the 'push away QR at the head of the CL'. This has made the SS SureFire somewhat redundant.
This one move by most manufacturers to fall into step with the most effective QR action means that we can all now swap around our kites - or grab a test ride of a mates kite - and know that the one same single action will trigger the QR.
If there are any brands out there not following suit?? its time they did.
The problem now comes down to how often you practice & check the QR technique. As we have seen from this latest incident you dont always get time to think it through.
IT MUST BE A TOTALLY AVAILABLE WELL PRACTICED ACTION.
In the KSS school we teach (hammer home) the practice of using your QR every time you land your kite.
Its simple.
As long as you have faith in your landing assistant - as soon as the kite is under your landers control instead of walking towards them to give them the slack to lay it down just hit your QR.
This means you are thinking about it, practicing the action and checking that it functioning EVERY time you go out.
Its a no brainer. Should be standard practice of every kiter.
It also means that you have to re-build your chicken loop once every session. No biggy but you may just be very happy one day that your rebuild is also 2nd nature - not requiring any lengthy thinking about how its done.
AND
Since last Sunday the KSS school student manual features a new slogan.
One Im planning to paste in front of everyone face as often as possible.
Quick Release - A first response NOT a last resort.
From our latest sad experience here we have seen that its when you are already in a messy situation that the serious; however unexpected; next consequence hits that there may be NO time left for saving yourself.
Quick Release - A first response NOT a last resort.
Test it & practice it EVERY session.
Reckon I might get some 'T's printed up :-)
Yep. Too many people hang on to the bar for grim death because (I assume) they either think they can fly it out or they don't want to risk damaging their gear... and get themselves hurt. Or worse.
QRing should be a reflex - kites can be replaced, after all.
Select to expand quoteChris6791 said..Puetz said...
... I thought of this ages ago but had no idea how it could be implemented but a sort of fuse device that lets go when reached a predetermined pressure. You see fuses in all electrical equipment, so how can we put one in a bar/chickenloop/kite or even harness??
I've got no idea how you could 'fuse' a kite but wouldn't that be a good idea??? Making it independant of rider input is most important. When triggered, goes to one line sort of deal.
I assume it would have to be rider weight specific too so that complicates things too and not trigger prematurely when your pushing your riding (eg say kite loops).
Any one think this is an idea to pursue?? Any ideas???
cheers,
Robbie
ps man the old core chicken loop has some bad numbers,,,, yikes,,, I used to own one of them, not many people can lift 49kg with one hand!!!
The forces in a lofting are identical to booooooooosting. No QR, device or fuse will ever be able to tell the difference.
... yeah, I know that,,,, and exactly why I say I have no idea how to implement!!! Some how we need to make it happen and I fully know the kite doesn't know the difference but some how we gotta mak it know!!!!
Well, sort of the same idea, but a what about a switch or what ever you could call it, that, if not always engaged, will let the kite go, sorta like a 'deadman' switch that so many bits of equipment have now a days. If it's not pressed, then it lets go. For kiting, if you don't have the "thing" pressed then its ejected, and gone.
Like I said, it needs to be totally rider independant so you don't need to think of it.
I mate used to joke that we need a butt plug, if you clinch, the kite is ejected, its all hands free!! 
.
cheers,
Robbie
I don't think additional QR systems will help. Arguably Marc had one tiny opportunity to pull his QR and he missed it. Reading back over the eyewitness accounts he was unconscious before anyone got to him, he may well have had survivable injuries at that stage but he was already in a lot of trouble.
Increasing the safety releases from two, to three or four won't really help the majority of kiters if the opportunity to punch out in the first instant is missed.
And I honestly can't see a dean man switch working either, I challenge any rider to go an entire session without taking both hands off the bar several times.
I'm not knocking the ideas, but I don't have any suggestions that aren't already out there either.
Gday all,
On to the subject of the quick release, id just like to point out a different view on the topic.
Ive had a personal experience and witnessed 2 situations where the quick release should have been deployed.
On all occasions the speed of the incident for one reason or an other didn't allow the person to activate it immediately?
I guess that the first instinct we have is to get control of the kite.In a emergency this is the wrong decision.But as kiters we only practise controlling the kite.from your first kiting lessons on.
If you could have a kiting simulator where you were watching a screen with your hands placed on a bar with a quick release below you ,and they let a situation unfold on the screen I bet that most people would react to slowly to activate it.In a bad situation you only have a split second to release.The best quick release in the world isn't going to help you unless you have the instinct to release it when things go pear.This is just my view on the topic.
Best of luck to all ,stay safe.
Hook knife. If you're face-down on the ground and the kite is pulling or the wind is gusting, I'm cutting your lines...
I don't think its necessarily about assisting the kiter initially but making it easier for people who respond to help a kiter, if the kiter misses that opportunity to punch out then its going to be hard for a rescuer to activate a QR especially if the kiter is laying face down, having something on the back of the harness that releases either the harness or the kite makes it much easier as you know you have an easy point of releasing a powered kite if you cant access the QR. But every situation is different with different variables so you just don't know, but if companies did incorporate some sort of system and it saves only one person then its worth it, but it would probably have to be some sort of industry standard as if one brand did it no one would be familiar with it and or know its even a feature of a particular harness should the occasion arise.
Select to expand quotesir ROWDY said...
Some harnesses have a quick release type setup on the harness itself, one that you pull and your entire harness will come off and fly away with the kite. I think this is the best option as it's a sure way to ditch it all without stuff catching up if it doesn't work out. More brands should adopt this approach I think as it would be easy to get to and the most effective.
Had this fail on a prolimit hadlow, the little pin sheared on its second run giving me approx 600mtr swim to shore minus a kite,as the sun was going down, great system if you want it to work but a pisser if you dont
Lets face it. We are all guilty of choosing to try to manage the kite when things have gone just a little bit wrong.
It may not initially be an out of control situation - just one where - momentarily - we have to save the day by holding the kite till it all becomes manageable again. We all do it.
This past weekends tragedy (im assuming from lots of reports) was just one of these occassions. Run up the beach totally over-powered but thinking all will be good when the kite comes to 12. Already a bit out of control but thinking all will be good any second now - then another unexpected situation throws itself into the mix and all of a sudden it goes from manageable to disaster in one breath.
QR - 1st response not a last resort!!!!
I know experienced kiters are never going to blindly QR at the 1st sign of a problem. 99.?% of the time they are probably going to be able to save the day without a 2nd thought required. But this is the realm of the extremely capable & experienced and - as seen last Sunday - even then will never be a guarantee that another unexpected weather or situation input isnt going to take things into the totally uncontrollable, potentially disastrous category.
There is never a situation where hitting your QR is going to make things any worse. 5 minutes of inconvenience & time lost is a small price to pay to be sure that the - however unlikely - 2nd complication isnt going to let nature rule the day.
QR - the first response NOT a last resort.
Select to expand quotecauncy said..sir ROWDY said...
Some harnesses have a quick release type setup on the harness itself, one that you pull and your entire harness will come off and fly away with the kite. I think this is the best option as it's a sure way to ditch it all without stuff catching up if it doesn't work out. More brands should adopt this approach I think as it would be easy to get to and the most effective.
Had this fail on a prolimit hadlow, the little pin sheared on its second run giving me approx 600mtr swim to shore minus a kite,as the sun was going down, great system if you want it to work but a pisser if you dont
Same could be said for every single quick release piece of equipment... I had a Prolimit harness for years that had this system and it never released on me. I still think this idea is the best option as it totally disconnects you from the problem at hand.
Select to expand quoteChris6791 said..
And I honestly can't see a dean man switch working either, I challenge any rider to go an entire session without taking both hands off the bar several times.
I'm not knocking the ideas, but I don't have any suggestions that aren't already out there either.
... I agree but you slightly missed my point. Excuse the term but a 'deadman' switch or thingy or what ever we can call it means that your hands are free to do as normal, and the "thing" or "switch" can activate when needed. I know, "how the hell do we make one of those" so maybe some of the much smarter cookies out there can work out a way. Maybe we're still 'flat earth' thinking but I'm sure we can all agree, something along these lines would be a good thing.
My son was learning to kite and for 6 months, every morning I'd be driving my son to school and I would test him to "punch out" an imaginary chickenloop, even before I actually let him even fly a real kite. I'd be talking about a completely different subject and would suprize him with a "punch out". I wanted to 'burn' into his sub-conscious the first thing you think of is "if in doubt, punching out". A few years later he got dumped in waves with wierd gusts around and without thinking, he punched out his kite, safety leash and all were gone. I had to chase it down and when I got to talk to him about it later, he told me his lines nearly wrapped around his neck as a wave pushed him into the lines so he ejected the lot. He got a pat on the head for that. Anyway, the point of that is I didn't want him thinking about it, just do it. I figured, if its done in the first 2 seconds you can minimize alot of problems. You know, I've seen so many people who try to save a kite when things go wrong, including my self, try to when we shouldn't have, so those first split seconds can make all difference.
I'm gunna do some reminder safety lessons with the family this arvo!!!
cheers,
Robbie 
There must be a way to figure out another safety feature to prevent this kind of accident.
The issue is while being dragged across the sand/ground face down , couldn't there be mechanism on the harness that will deploy as this type of force is applied? Such as... perhaps several little wheels that after turning a few times would cause a release? Or something to do with a combination of the force plus the angle together? Or a harness hook that releases when force is applied strait on to it such as when you were to fall down face first?
One huge factor is the accidents seem to happen when not on the board so perhaps that could be part of the safety, an additional feature that releases easier when not in the footstraps.
... I think this is a great discussion,,, out of 1000 ideas we may just come up with a practical idea that might work, who knows!
Select to expand quotePuetz said..
... I think this is a great discussion,,, out of 1000 ideas we may just come up with a practical idea that might work, who knows!
The only practical (and foolproof) idea is to properly assess the conditions and risk factor at any given location. All this other cr@p will make little difference.
I suspect Sir Rowdy will hate this idea, but whatever Ill put it out there!
It strikes me that the big problem for an auto-release function is the wide range of variables, hence hard to set it up to release when it goes to sh**t, but not release during normal operations.
I wonder if a PLC (Programmable logic controller) controlled release mechanism of last resort would improve things. You could plug in data such as rider weight, kite size, rider style, wind conditions etc which it would use to calculate an auto-release strain. You could even include sensors for data such as being over land or water. If over land, it could cut release strain by 50% for example. Directional data could be factored in, eg if you are going straight down wind, release strain is reduced. An accellerometer could detect a big impact maybe, and factor into release strain.
It would need a proper research project to pull the elements of data, sensors, ruggedizing etc together. The concept would be similar to a car airbag in that the rider should do everything possible to avoid an accident but as a last resort it could be a level of protection.
I think cost and complexity are probably the biggest negatives for this idea!
Select to expand quotesir ROWDY said..Puetz said..
... I think this is a great discussion,,, out of 1000 ideas we may just come up with a practical idea that might work, who knows!
The only practical (and foolproof) idea is to properly assess the conditions and risk factor at any given location. All this other cr@p will make little difference.
I agree that properly assessing the situation is the most important aspect but I still think that having redundant safety releases is a good thing. On one occasion I found myself with a looping kite and my Slingshot QR was jammed for whatever reason (I always rinse my gear and pull the safety before lauching but this time I forgot). I got away because the kite hit the water and I used that opportunity to pull out the donkey dick, unhook and let it fly.
I am currently looking at this Mystic hook release spreader bar but can't find high resolution pictures that show whether the flimsy release pin is under a lot of load or not. The demo video shows that it works well in 10 or 15kn but that is not a representative situation. For 70 bucks I think I will give it a shot.
People die while kiteboarding because they a) drown or b) impact with a solid object. I think if you hit something and are unconscious it's pretty much game over. I just want a second chance to release in case the primary QR fails if you get lofted or dragged under water. I might not have the time for that or my helmet might not be strong enough to save me but at least I have tried.
No Flexifoil in that list... ? I quite like the flexi release system. Push away.
I remember trying to cut out of an older velcro pin type system that just would not budge under load. It 'helpfully' released after I'd 'landed'
Pretty much everytime I've had close calls with gear was due to rushing the setup to get out there... 5 minutes more to double check your gear aint gonna kill you, 5 minutes less just might.
yeh I remember rigging those up in the early days, sometimes i found it hard thought o find that dam ball to pull when getting slammed downwind with a kitelooping out of control on a C kite with f'all depower.
Select to expand quoteWeirdEd said..sir ROWDY said..Puetz said..
... I think this is a great discussion,,, out of 1000 ideas we may just come up with a practical idea that might work, who knows!
The only practical (and foolproof) idea is to properly assess the conditions and risk factor at any given location. All this other cr@p will make little difference.
I agree that properly assessing the situation is the most important aspect but I still think that having redundant safety releases is a good thing. On one occasion I found myself with a looping kite and my Slingshot QR was jammed for whatever reason (I always rinse my gear and pull the safety before lauching but this time I forgot). I got away because the kite hit the water and I used that opportunity to pull out the donkey dick, unhook and let it fly.
I am currently looking at this Mystic hook release spreader bar but can't find high resolution pictures that show whether the flimsy release pin is under a lot of load or not. The demo video shows that it works well in 10 or 15kn but that is not a representative situation. For 70 bucks I think I will give it a shot.
People die while kiteboarding because they a) drown or b) impact with a solid object. I think if you hit something and are unconscious it's pretty much game over. I just want a second chance to release in case the primary QR fails if you get lofted or dragged under water. I might not have the time for that or my helmet might not be strong enough to save me but at least I have tried.
I think you're missing my point.
My point was that no-matter what high tech release system you come up with if you can't pull the thing it's not going to make a difference... this poor guy didn't pull his release in WA so it wouldn't have mattered what system he had in place. What could possibly have saved his life however was better assessment of the situation and the risks involved with kiting at that location. I'm not saying that he shouldn't have gone out, or that he could have known this would happen. I'm merely pointing out that risk assessment should be the top priority for every kiter out there and the quick release should be something you really shouldn't have to use and not treated as a plan B for when something does go wrong in conditions when it probably will.
