Rider Level: Intermediate
Location: Woodies Beach 3, Offshore direction
Wind : 21-25Knots
Had my new 7M dice out for its debut yesterday in woodies beach 3 yesterday, in brilliant conditions. Had the leash on suicide setup with a 4 line bar, and trying some basic unhooking and standard hooked in tricks???
Then tried a darkslide and made a complete balls of it, and ended up not completing the kiteloop and crashing it on the water. I actually rode towards the kite slightly which also caused the lines to go slack??? The kite then went onto its back. I was then standing in waist deep water waiting for the kite to come around to a relaunch position, I noticed that one of the bridles had gone around the wing tip, a second later the kite relaunched and immediately went into a continuous kiteloop???.boll0cks??? after 3 quick loops I realized that it was uncorrectable and pulled my quick release, quick release disengaged perfectly. BUT, the kite continued a textbook deathloop and each loop dragged me a meter out to sea??? I stayed connected to the kite only by my leash for about 15 more loops trying to clamber my way up the powered line to try and flag the kite, but couldn???t grip it enough and realized if I got tangled in the slack lines I would be in a whole new world of sh1t???. so I let her go completely???.sickened!!
So I pulled my leash release, and then proceeded to stomp and kick around the beach like a 7 year old, as the kite floated off towards Coogee/Freo direction with bar and lines in tow. In the end an absolute legend (Tom European accent??) that I didn???t know kited out to the floating kite and skillfully kited the whole tangled mess back to shore. Massive thanks again buddy!!!
Anyhow, the reason I???m posting this is not to put sh1t on the dice, I???ve demoed a lot of north Kites (thanks to Action Sports WA) and previously only ridden RPMs but I really really like the dice, however my first experience on the 7m was a bit disconcerting???. So I???m looking for feedback on this:
1.? Has this happened to other people on the dice?
2.? Is the geometry of this kites ???swept wingtips???, combined with large bridal opening make it more susceptible to overlapping into death loop position? This could be more apparent in smaller kite sizes?
3.?Do other kites continue to deathloop after the quick release is pulled?
4.?Is the 5 line configuration for the dice the only proper way to mitigate against this scenario?
Good feedback appreciated.
#woundedpride
That sounds scary.glad it ended ok.and yea you are lucky tom was there.id like to help out a fellow kiter like that but don't have the skill even though I've been kiting quite a while.very difficult to rescue a kite especially in seven mt weather.hats off to Tom and great selfless act.just a thought and please don't take this the wrong way but north have a great five line safety system.in winter I ride my religions with it don't know if that would stop the initial death loop probably not although suicide on to the fifth line might.but once you release to it you probably won't have to eject completely.good luck.
Definitely not the best way to spend your first day with a new kite, I cannot comment on the Dice as such as I fly North Evo kites but a few times I have had the 5th line wrap around these. Normally this is when getting too much slack and they fall back on themselves. Sometimes I have been lucky and they have unrolled and other times they have bowtied and then they just loop until you pull the safety. I would probably stay away from 5th line setups on the dice for this reason although others may be able to offer different insights.
This could happen on ANY kite end of story.
If you are the guy I am thinking of riding yesterday you where giving yourself and that kite a beating of a lifetime. If you don't like the dice then switch to the Vegas and enjoy the benefits of having a 5th line. This has happened to us all so take it and get back on the horse.
Select to expand quotetgcp said..AidanT said..
So I pulled my leash release, and then proceeded to stomp and kick around the beach like a 7 year old, as the kite floated off towards Coogee/Freo direction with bar and lines in tow. In the end an absolute legend (Tom European accent??) that I didn???t know kited out to the floating kite and skillfully kited the whole tangled mess back to shore. Massive thanks agains
Another bloody euro with advanced kiting skills, a menace to us all....bet he went straight from rescuing your kite to ****ting in the dunes. ;-)
But seriously the whole incident sounds to me like just one of those unlucky days, guess it could happen with any kite....
He probably has a good looking Euro girlfriend. Don't we hate those guys. Trying to steal the Dice using it as tent for his dune @$&/ business.
Dice, as well as some other kites with far too long bridles (eg the older Core Riot XR) will always be more prone to have it catch the wingtip leading to deathloops. Using it with the 5th line in offshore or winter storm conditions is probably a good idea. The Hindenburging problem with the 5th line wrapped around the kite is a pain but one can always pull the safety and either manage to put it back together without tangled lines, or at least swing back without losing the kite.
... my guess is that when the kite lines went slack and fell backwards, there was enough slack in lines to whip the bridle up and over the wing tip as it caught the wind again, probably made worse since its such a small kite and super fast. My old 17m Core did this a couple of times in its life time and now that I think about it, I did it once on my old 2011 Dyno, had me f'ked how it happened but none the less, it happened! A split second here or there it might never have happened at all, who knows!
I reckon things would have been different had you used a 5 line bar and punching out might have just given you the chance to recover.
Sh!t happens kind of thing, get back on the horse is a good idea!!!!
cheers,
Robbie 
This sort of thing does not happen with every kite, but there are some things that you did that did make it happen on this kite.
Sounds like the darkslide attempt ended in a pendulum kerplunk and slack lines, this is the first big issue for lost of kites with long bridles, combined with their leading edge shape and possibly "protection" bumpers or bridle attachment point interacting as the kite slid around from its on back position to a relaunch, leading the the bridle and the other front line snagged over one tip.
Kites, and there are many brands and models, that have dual front line flagging are extremely prone to this issue of the bridle and the other front line tangling on a tip, because the other front line keeps some tension once its tangled and thats why it death loops with some power.
I broke a front line the other night on a single front line flagging system, directly upwind of a sandy point I was trying to get past, I was only a couple of line lengths off the beach, fortunately it was not the flagging line. The kite immediately started to death loop and once I realised it was unrecoverable, I flagged to one front line, this killed the kite completely and it drifted onto the beach.
For me, mini fifth, or dual front line flagging systems, combined with longish bridles that are long enough to catch a tip are the main cause of this sort of incident, BUT its almost always initiated by riding towards the kite, or some other mistake that slacks the front lines and makes the kite crash in the water with slack lines.
Like everyone says, learn from the experience, get back on the horse and have another go, but keep what happened in mind, because it can and will happen again with the style of safety system, if you let it.
Well done to Tom, Euros leading by example... I hope you were bought a beer afterwards for your selfless act.
Yeah true - what a legend for helping you out. I had an incident at Brighton about 4 weeks ago - there was an Italian guy out there jumping with his TT- i think the wind was probably a bit strong for him 25+kts - anyways he stacked it then downed his kite on my head as I was going past - took me out, I was tangled in his lines & mine, anyways I had to eject as I was tangled & waves taking me under, I swam in & watched in disbelief as my new Dice was heading towards Trigg fast !, this guy with his kite down & still connected then managed to body drag towards my kite, he then attached to my bar & directed it towards the shore - I swam out & retrieved it & his kite - the lines were an absolute mess - he untangled everything on the beach & relaunched me on the beach apologising the whole time. Made a new mate & enjoyed a beer later. Not all Euros are wa^&ers - get over the language barrier & have a chat with one next time at your local - it might be a rewarding experience. Would you like to be treated like ** if you were visiting someone elses country & kitesurfing their local ?
A dark slide in 25 knots as an "intermediate" rider. You have bigger balls than me!
It happens on all kites contrary to what some people say. Name a brand and I can guarantee someone has had a similar issue with a death loop. Even a 4 line non-bridle can have this kind of problem. It's mostly user error and sometimes just a case of bad luck. As for the leashing system, yes, this method can reduce the impact when you release your kite on a death loop, but again, sometimes you're unlucky and you have a snag on the bar itself which is the cause of the loops.
Live and learn, release your kite sooner if it happens.
Yeh man I've had all sorts of kites with different safety set ups do this, not fun hey.
Must admit agree with Steve, single front line safety without the high Y is ultimately safer.
I'm not sure you'd call the dice bridals excessively long, tell ya the earlier core kites were ridiculous. The new VX is outrageously long!
I'd say next time try as soon as you eat sht (funny did the exact same thing the other day doing yet another piss poor effort at a dark slide) get some tension on those frontlines ASAP (was easy as I was in waist high water, not so easy when deeper) or do what I did just punched out straight away...got through the slide alright, just pulled the loop way to late and used my face to stop the powered loop fall...ah aha ...get back on the horse and go harder my man!!!
I have had more problems on the dice than before with Evos or rebels with the tip catching the steering lines. I use 5 lines at the moment.
Don't do tricks but have found I have to watch it on self launching. Get the kite to the launch position then don't allow launch until the steering line has cleared the tip. Sometimes I need to give the line a flick to clear it. It might also be a problem with my technique but it seems more profound with this kite. And I have found that I have to flick a bridle around a tip more frequently on set up.
But love the kite. Stay with it.
After crashing in the surf with lines going slack my North rebel went into death loop.
The problem I realised as I was being supermanned down the beach was that one of the steering lines was hooked around the bar.
Have had inversions and bowties but kite would fly at least to bodydrag back to beach and sort it out. But that shortening of a steering line I believe was the main cause of the looping kite. So my point being, if you crash and lines are slack make sure the lines are free and clear at the bar end at least and you may be able to recover even with a bow tied kite.
Select to expand quotesci said..
If you don't like the dice then switch to the Vegas and enjoy the benefits of having a 5th line. This has happened to us all so take it and get back on the horse.
you can fly the dice both on a 5 and 4 line set up as well
Dammit. I want to buy a Dice. But at the same time I don't like the dual front line safety thing. I think its a crap safety design....
I have only ever had one death loop situation with my single front line flag out and that was because I had not set up the stopper ball on the flag out line far enough away for the biggest kite I fly. The couldn't flag properly and did a slow underpowered deathloop. I had to hit the secondary release and swim in.
Apart from that all the times I have hit the safety my kite has flagged out.
Select to expand quoteKitepower Australia said..
For me, mini fifth, or dual front line flagging systems, combined with longish bridles that are long enough to catch a tip are the main cause of this sort of incident, BUT its almost always initiated by riding towards the kite, or some other mistake that slacks the front lines and makes the kite crash in the water with slack lines.
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Thanks for the feedback everyone some interesting stuff! I think kitepower Australia has nailed it here thats the combination 3 things that caused my deathloop and how I could see it happening in the future. From a safety point of view i think ill go with a 5 line configuration at least for smaller kites, which is a pain as I prefer 4 line simplicity.
anyhow other than a pair of soiled undies and damaged pride got away with it unscathed thanks again to Tom!!
cheers
Select to expand quoteAidanT said..Kitepower Australia said..
For me, mini fifth, or dual front line flagging systems, combined with longish bridles that are long enough to catch a tip are the main cause of this sort of incident, BUT its almost always initiated by riding towards the kite, or some other mistake that slacks the front lines and makes the kite crash in the water with slack lines.
.
Thanks for the feedback everyone some interesting stuff! I think kitepower Australia has nailed it here thats the combination 3 things that caused my deathloop and how I could see it happening in the future. From a safety point of view i think ill go with a 5 line configuration at least for smaller kites, which is a pain as I prefer 4 line simplicity.
anyhow other than a pair of soiled undies and damaged pride got away with it unscathed thanks again to Tom!!
cheers
I know what you mean. I wish we'd had something like the old Slingshot 5th line grenade in order to disconnect the 5th e.g. when wrapped around the kite without having to pull the QR. We'd still have the pain of separating 3 twisted middle lines before each session but I could live with it. Not sure why North is not having such grenade in the portfolio?
I think it's because the fifth line is designed to be loaded on norths .would be be great if they could design something like the grenade.
Select to expand quotejimmijaz said..
I think it's because the fifth line is designed to be loaded on norths .would be be great if they could design something like the grenade.
Yeah it's loaded on the Vegas e.g.
But technically this should still be possible I recon to have a grenade designed. It will fly ok without the 5th. Of course it's just to fly back to a safe dry place anyway (5th will flap around like a flag) and one could redo the line. But would save us from swimming back with either a wrapped around 5th or a line mess in case the pulling-the-safety, getting rid of the 5th wrap, and reloading safety does not work out as seaweed or something else messes it up
Select to expand quotesir ROWDY said..
Sounds a bit dicey to me...
haha quote of the day.
Shame, I thought norths elasticated bridle was a good innovation. ( not on dice)
If you can physically bend the wingtips through the bridle on a kite even bending leading edge hard, it can and will happen.
Bridles are clearly too long. All I would say is on kites like these pumping them hard helps but is not a resolution to a problem that has been around since the development of the bow kite. I have had 2 friends nearly killed / drowned by tip wrap death loops. Designs r improving - but still designers are prioritising kite mechanics (levers and links = pullies and bridles) above safety. That is my engineer opinion anyway....
Pump hard.. leash at front/ side..?!
5th rules in high winds, wave grenade ruled
Select to expand quoteiandvnt said..
Shame, I thought norths elasticated bridle was a good innovation. ( not on dice)
If you can physically bend the wingtips through the bridle on a kite even bending leading edge hard, it can and will happen.
Bridles are clearly too long. All I would say is on kites like these pumping them hard helps but is not a resolution to a problem that has been around since the development of the bow kite. I have had 2 friends nearly killed / drowned by tip wrap death loops. Designs r improving - but still designers are prioritising kite mechanics (levers and links = pullies and bridles) above safety. That is my engineer opinion anyway....
Pump hard.. leash at front/ side..?!
5th rules in high winds, wave grenade ruled
If you can dump the kite completely is your safety issue not sorted?
Sometimes. One occasion I have seen someone thrown 30foot onto their head from a tip wrap deathloop... unconscious.. tip wrap at launch
Another ended up in a tree wrap at launch... One dragged up out of water up beach towards rocks for 150 m. Another dragged for 1km+ half drowned.. they could not get to their safety.. they gave up kiting..
this happened to mo on 9knt wind with a light wind kite :)...... my kite stalled and I tried recovering it by yanking the middle line, kite caught some wind lines on the left side got tangle on the bar as well as my fingers...death loop with my finger locked on it... good thing the kite crashed
