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Mutually exclusive rules of kite construction

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Created by odetojak > 9 months ago, 3 Jun 2010
odetojak
NSW, 54 posts
3 Jun 2010 4:01PM
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In the midst of reading every kite review I can get my hands on, it's becoming evident that there's certain principles of kites that I'm trying to clarify.

Can someone just confirm for me I'm on right track with the following VERY general observations.

1. Depower is attributable to the kite's ability to change the angle of attack. Therefore in most cases, a bridled kite or SLE usually means you've got more depower. A c-kite will not usually have as much depower.

2. Kites with 5 struts will be more rigid when you send it (or some other reason), hence will generally, as a rule, jump higher than 3 strut kites.

3. The float of the jump will usually be disproportionate to the speed of the kite turning because of the shape of the canopy (aspect ratio). ie. A somewhat sluggish turning kite with a wide canopy will take forever to come down, hence floaty, however a narrow kite will turn much faster, but not have as much float.

4. Unhooking on a bridled / SLE / high depower kite will usually rip your arms off because all the depower is released at that moment. Unhooking on a C will be more akin to the naturaly riding style hooked in because the depower isn't there to start with.

Therefore, if i want the trifecta of a kite with high depower, big boosting / long floaty jumps and the ability to easily unhook, I can't really have it, because the items are somewhat mutually exclusive based on the above, and I need to pick out which elements i should be sacrificing and how much.

Is this correct?

I also have no idea on what causes 'stability' for general free-riding, but my impression here is that it is largely based around, "the 09 was super stable, the 0-10 wasn't as good, and the 08 was pretty average " - ie. they got lucky once they'd put together all the other bits.

J inthe bool
VIC, 105 posts
3 Jun 2010 4:23PM
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I don't have the answers to your questions, but i do agree that you can't have all aspects of fun in one kite..... you have to sacrific some things.....
The term "Hybrid" is pooping up alot now... i think they are trying to fill that big gap in the market that you are on about. But they are not there yet...!

p.s. I have found that some of the new SLE's don't dislocate your arm holes when you unhook...

au_rick
WA, 752 posts
3 Jun 2010 3:04PM
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Sounds like you've got it pretty much nailed, compomise being the catch word.

Having said that there are some kites (Airuch Vapor for example) that combine SLE like depower ability with a 5 line configuration (no bridle).

I don't unhook (probably because I'm a pussy ?) but I do know that a mate who usually flies North was blown away by the lift and float whe he boosted my 10m one day (he said he scared the sh!t out of himself).

Having a very good range of depower, and below the bar adjustment, I'd expect that if you had it trimmed right, unhooking would be no problem.

Clintos
QLD, 88 posts
3 Jun 2010 5:31PM
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au_rick said...



Having a very good range of depower, and below the bar adjustment, I'd expect that if you had it trimmed right, unhooking would be no problem.


This is correct... I have a Naish Cult (which is a bridled SLE) with below the bar depower trim (smartloop). Before I unhook, I depower the kite to the level where having the bar all the way in is semi-comfortable to ride.

Just unhook, pop your trick, spot your landing and ride away....

GriffinKites
NSW, 201 posts
3 Jun 2010 6:19PM
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Here is my 2c worth from experience talking to other designers and the past 5 or more years of design, feel free to disagree and address punctuation and spelling etc etc.... Its a quick reply as the answers could be expanded to fill a 1000 page book ....

Depower is attributable to the kite's ability to change the angle of attack.
Mostly, there is also LE size, AR and the position of the attachment points being forward or back of the center of pull. But its mostly the kites ability to change the angle of attack without loosing control ( overly de power a kite on the 5th line, it will de power well but fly not as good )

bridled kite or SLE usually means you've got more depower
Yes mostly, A 5th line will give you alot of depower but bad controll when over-depowered, a bridled kite will give you more controll when depowered. A good bridled kite will give you more controll when depowered. It also depends on the atachment points of the bridle on the LE and how well supported the LE is.

Kites with 5 struts will be more rigid when you send it
hence will generally, as a rule, jump higher than 3 strut kites

Jumping mostly comes from AR, a thin kite with thin LE will jump higher than a fat kite with a thick LE. Struts help keep the shape in strong winds, but add weight and performance loss. It also depends on the foil ( amount of curve on the canopy ) and the thickness of the struts and kite shape.

The float of the jump will usually be disproportionate to the speed of the kite turning because of the shape of the canopy (aspect ratio) ie. A somewhat sluggish turning kite with a wide canopy will take forever to come down, hence floaty, however a narrow kite will turn much faster, but not have as much float.
If the kite shoots forward when jumping you wont parachute down, you will fall down unless you keep turning the kite. if the kite is balanced to sit above you like a parachute when you come down you will have a softer landing. Its also how you send the kite when jumping. Mostly a low AR kite will be more floaty, but a skilled rider on a high AR kite can make a floaty jump.

4. Unhooking on a bridled / SLE / high depower kite will usually rip your arms off because all the depower is released at that moment. Unhooking on a C will be more akin to the naturaly riding style hooked in because the depower isn't there to start with.
Depends on the kite and bridle position, bar travel, bar pressure and depowering the bar before unhooking.

Therefore, if i want the trifecta of a kite with high depower, big boosting / long floaty jumps and the ability to easily unhook, I can't really have it, because the items are somewhat mutually exclusive based on the above, and I need to pick out which elements i should be sacrificing and how much.

high depower = higher AR & bridled but Bridled for depower and a good bridle
big boosting / long floaty jumps = High and Med and Low AR are doing this.
easily unhook = depends on bridle non bridle position and the kite (forward or back)

As a rule in kite design, there are no solid rules, and changing something changes everything else.

I also have no idea on what causes 'stability' for general free-riding
Lower AR kites tend to be more stable, also bridle/line attachment points not to far forward on the kite will keep it in the air better, and balanced weight on the kite, a kite with a heavy LE will fall...




getfunky
WA, 4485 posts
3 Jun 2010 4:21PM
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Release the hounds...

Well there are several items to be argued there. Nah - even though they are generalising you are pretty spot on. As rick says also compromise is the key.

Decide what you (really) want the most and go a tad more in that direction. Be honest with yourself and don't expect too much of one without losing the other (ie reluanch vs upwind/flying forward in the window - generalising again).

I have to say the smaller 2 of my 3 kites (9m & 7m) are compromised towards good all round behaviour at the expense of a little higher performance. They are 3 strut kites (brand isn't really important). I had in mind no way was I gonna even demo a 3 strut kite due to some of the reasons you state above. Well I gotta say I was very surprised at how much I liked these kites immediately and had to be thankful i tried them on a whim.

Now I should say I still wouldn't be that keen on a 3 strut kite bigger than 9/10m but they work fine (for me) at 7m&9m sizes.

As a more experianced kiter than I once said.. "The longer I kite - the less I know." So try as many kites - even on the periphery of what looks good on paper. You might get a surprise too.

Finally - to answer your question - I think it is fair to say generally that stability sacrifices a little performance and mags/kiters/advertisers expect more performance every year. Kinda like a honey trap - it looks to good to resist (at your peril).

SaveTheWhales
WA, 1896 posts
3 Jun 2010 5:42PM
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Odetojak

all simplified - kites are like tyres...

Racing Slicks = high performance, controlled flat surface - best results

All Terrain tyre = medium performance on/off road

4WD offroad tyre = high performance off road - best results

WaveSlaves wheely barrow tyre thingy = high perf' grass - best results with a Bong

So you have to stop practicing for female re-incarnation and make up your mind what you want it for

flat water - surf - tree decoration

p.s all brands are good if youre just having fun

getfunky
WA, 4485 posts
3 Jun 2010 5:55PM
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^^^Possibly the most honest and accurate SB post ever.

daggy
WA, 528 posts
7 Jun 2010 10:08PM
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forget the science ... just test fly everything in your price range.
(the less you pay - the more sizes you can get!!)
buy the well built kites that flew well ...my BESTs have been thrashed for 3 full seasons are still going strong and do it all good enough for my ability, (I leave the unhooking to the pros).
Just test fly everything and dont believe the hype, cause different kites simply suit different riders



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"Mutually exclusive rules of kite construction" started by odetojak