I have looked up apparent wind on Wikipedia and could in theory work out apparent wind for a kite if I had all the accurate wind speed info, my speed and angle etc.....
Not overly confusing or tricky in the maths department....
Here's the question then: (hypothetically speaking)
Say for instance I could get going and ride with a 14m kite and a twin tip in 15knots.
Now assume the kite, board and rider don't change.
When I'm cruising along with the kite parked the apparent wind maybe say 20 knots. When I sine the kite the apparent wind might be say 25 knots with the extra speed of the kite. (I'm obviously using very round numbers)
If I now change to a 11m kite with the same wind and sine the kite quicker because it turns faster the apparent wind speed would rise and therefore create more lift (pull).
Obviously some kites get into their sweet spots quicker and you can park and follow them easier, so why is it that on any given day you can do a few runs with the kite parked and pulling well then seconds later you change direction and you have to sine the kite heavily to even keep going and on and on the cycle goes?
Is this all purely technique?
Is it overworking the kite trying to get enough apparent wind to park it?
Is there a technique to build up apparent wind? (Thinking aloud here but starting to sine smaller and smaller as you build up speed)
It would be interesting to hear from advanced guys as to how they optimize apparent wind on marginal wind days and get the kite into the sweet park spot easier?
My technique is fairly good I think but nothing compared to guys who have been kiting since Jesus played full back for Jerusalem!
I have wondered a similar thing. Some times i will be riding one direction and hammering along, kite parked riding fine, then i change direction and i have to work the kite a fair bit more.
I only notice this when iam kiting off the beach (i have a sweet spot that has a flat water lake on one side of the sand bank and the open ocean on the other). I have decided the most likely reason i seem to have less power in one direction is because of the current in the ocean, one direction you may be going with the current (or more with than against) and the other direction you are going against the current (or more against than with). hope that made sense Thats my 2 cents
Select to expand quoteChris_M said...
Apparently you have a few questions.....
It's become apparent you have no answers?
What about the tide? I was out today with an 11m with 11-14 knots but we had 4.5m tide, so the runout was about 4 knots or maybe even 4.5 knots. So my question is dose this 4.5knots of tide give me an extra 4.5knots of apparent windo?
Select to expand quoteDaniel1973 said..
Chris_M said...
Apparently you have a few questions.....
It's become apparent you have no answers?
Apparently not.
But I will tell you that working the kite too aggressively can be less effective than getting a smooth, steady sine motion going on with the kite. If you feel like you are losing power, try changing the angle of your tack to point the nose of the board down wind a fraction more, until the point you feel yourself planing along a bit better. That increase in board speed will increase the kite speed too, thus increase apparent wind.
Bigger kites that I have ridden tend to produce a more steady pull if the sine motion is more constant rather than jerky up and down movements.
I have also come to the conclusion that light wind days are pretty boring, cos you are basically limited to mowing the lawn, maybe some transition tricks, but nothing that gives me an adrenalin rush.
Moral of the story, work it constantly and smoothly (like keep that kite moving!), don't look for a sweet spot, then work it like farq when you start losing power. Be proactive, not reactive. Or just drink beer on the beach smugly while everybody else is lummicking around trying to launch kites in no wind, self rescuing, losing boards etc
Love from Chris xxxxx
refer all of this back to sailing techniques, boat sizes, vmg, vog, apparent wind. there are novels on this( and is why a longer water length will point higher and have a higher hull speed. )to apoint. and that is why 100 foot maxis win.
Something else to mind fark you with. The faster you go and the more apparent wind you build the further back the wind Window shifts! The power zone is no longer in front of you. It has shifted back.
Low aspect kites side further back in the Window. So as speed build they find their speed limit sooner.
High aspect kites can hunt the edge of the wind Window better and can go faster before they hit their Window limit.
Singing the kite works at low speed. But it also pushes the kite back in the wind Window. So as you build aparent there comes a point when it is more efficient to park the kite and regulate aoa at the bar to keep the kite forward enough.
Clear as mud?
Select to expand quoteDaniel1973 said..
Is this all purely technique?
Is it overworking the kite trying to get enough apparent wind to park it?
Is there a technique to build up apparent wind? (Thinking aloud here but starting to sine smaller and smaller as you build up speed)
It would be interesting to hear from advanced guys as to how they optimize apparent wind on marginal wind days and get the kite into the sweet park spot easier?
My technique is fairly good I think but nothing compared to guys who have been kiting since Jesus played full back for Jerusalem!
My 2c:
The goal on marginal days is to get the board up & planing.
Like any sailing, it's as much about the boat, as it is about the sail...
a) firstly turn slightly downwind (= less energy required to get board going fast)
b) if on a surfboard, move your weight/feet forward on the board to present a flatter surface to the water (= less ploughing = less energy required)
c) bending the knees to absorb chop (=reduce chop slap =less energy required)
and ...
d) sine & adjust the 'sheeting' angle of the kite to find the sweet spot (= less drag = faster kite = more power)
If on a surfboard, you can then move your weight (feet) towards the tail as you gain speed.
Sometimes you need to burn a bit of downwind distance to get the speed up, but once you're up & planing, you can turn upwind to make the space up again.
In a nutshell: reduce as much friction & drag as possible from both board & kite, and you're away.
If you start slowing down, combine the options of turning downwind (gradually, not suddenly), sining the kite, and/or moving your weight forward again on the board...
... at least that's what works for me!
Select to expand quoteDaniel1973 said...
I have looked up apparent wind on Wikipedia and could in theory work out apparent wind for a kite if I had all the accurate wind speed info, my speed and angle etc.....
Not overly confusing or tricky in the maths department....
Here's the question then: (hypothetically speaking)
Say for instance I could get going and ride with a 14m kite and a twin tip in 15knots.
Now assume the kite, board and rider don't change.
When I'm cruising along with the kite parked the apparent wind maybe say 20 knots. When I sine the kite the apparent wind might be say 25 knots with the extra speed of the kite. (I'm obviously using very round numbers)
If I now change to a 11m kite with the same wind and sine the kite quicker because it turns faster the apparent wind speed would rise and therefore create more lift (pull).
Obviously some kites get into their sweet spots quicker and you can park and follow them easier, so why is it that on any given day you can do a few runs with the kite parked and pulling well then seconds later you change direction and you have to sine the kite heavily to even keep going and on and on the cycle goes?
Is this all purely technique?
Is it overworking the kite trying to get enough apparent wind to park it?
Is there a technique to build up apparent wind? (Thinking aloud here but starting to sine smaller and smaller as you build up speed)
It would be interesting to hear from advanced guys as to how they optimize apparent wind on marginal wind days and get the kite into the sweet park spot easier?
My technique is fairly good I think but nothing compared to guys who have been kiting since Jesus played full back for Jerusalem!
...Perhaps move to a windy place. ..
Edge down wind to gather more speed to create that apparent wind .Then you can in increase your angle of attack up wind with that extra speed.Hold your kite slightly higher as you start to edge up wind a bit more.When you start feeling you are going to stall dive your kite and direct down wind to get your speed up again.Also get a bigger wider board with hardly any rocker for your marginal days.
Select to expand quotelostatsea said..Daniel1973 said...
I have looked up apparent wind on Wikipedia and could in theory work out apparent wind for a kite if I had all the accurate wind speed info, my speed and angle etc.....
Not overly confusing or tricky in the maths department....
Here's the question then: (hypothetically speaking)
Say for instance I could get going and ride with a 14m kite and a twin tip in 15knots.
Now assume the kite, board and rider don't change.
When I'm cruising along with the kite parked the apparent wind maybe say 20 knots. When I sine the kite the apparent wind might be say 25 knots with the extra speed of the kite. (I'm obviously using very round numbers)
If I now change to a 11m kite with the same wind and sine the kite quicker because it turns faster the apparent wind speed would rise and therefore create more lift (pull).
Obviously some kites get into their sweet spots quicker and you can park and follow them easier, so why is it that on any given day you can do a few runs with the kite parked and pulling well then seconds later you change direction and you have to sine the kite heavily to even keep going and on and on the cycle goes?
Is this all purely technique?
Is it overworking the kite trying to get enough apparent wind to park it?
Is there a technique to build up apparent wind? (Thinking aloud here but starting to sine smaller and smaller as you build up speed)
It would be interesting to hear from advanced guys as to how they optimize apparent wind on marginal wind days and get the kite into the sweet park spot easier?
My technique is fairly good I think but nothing compared to guys who have been kiting since Jesus played full back for Jerusalem!
...Perhaps move to a windy place. ..
The advanced guys don't go out in 15 anymore cause they figured it isn't worth the hassle
otherwisalas Laurie said, flatten out the board a bpit more and bend ze knees
I can have a big hang time boost sesh on my 17 m edge in 14 knots on a speed ball w18.Or do a down winder on my 10 m reo and north nugget combo !
Select to expand quotePlummet said...
Something else to mind fark you with. The faster you go and the more apparent wind you build the further back the wind Window shifts! The power zone is no longer in front of you. It has shifted back.
Low aspect kites side further back in the Window. So as speed build they find their speed limit sooner.
High aspect kites can hunt the edge of the wind Window better and can go faster before they hit their Window limit.
Singing the kite works at low speed. But it also pushes the kite back in the wind Window. So as you build aparent there comes a point when it is more efficient to park the kite and regulate aoa at the bar to keep the kite forward enough.
Clear as mud?
Don't you mean the window shifts forwards?
Select to expand quotesurfingboye said..
if its windy, kite.
too easy.
Like the old Tracks slogan - "If it swells, ride it!"
Select to expand quoteKamikuza said...Plummet said...
Something else to mind fark you with. The faster you go and the more apparent wind you build the further back the wind Window shifts! The power zone is no longer in front of you. It has shifted back.
Low aspect kites side further back in the Window. So as speed build they find their speed limit sooner.
High aspect kites can hunt the edge of the wind Window better and can go faster before they hit their Window limit.
Singing the kite works at low speed. But it also pushes the kite back in the wind Window. So as you build aparent there comes a point when it is more efficient to park the kite and regulate aoa at the bar to keep the kite forward enough.
Clear as mud?
Don't you mean the window shifts forwards?
No. The faster you go the further back the wind wind shifts in relation to you.
When you start the edge of the Window is 90 degree to you when you are facing down wind. At full speed the edge of the wind is almost directly downwind......
How do you guys make a simple topic so confusing ?? LOL
Ok standing with you back to the wind that's blowing12 knots your kite 'sees' 12 knots - even if its at the 2 O'clock position OK ?
Now if you can get going lets say to your right at 12 knots board speed, the kite will 'see' 12 knots of wind speed plus a component of your forward speed - this is called apparent wind !!
Obviously your kite wont 'see 12 knots of wind speed plus 12 knots of forward speed = 24 knots cuz its a vector thing (geek stuff) but you will be able to park the kite and mow the lawn cuz the kite is experiencing something more than 12 knots now that it is moving through the air - at that stage unless you are a fat boy like me you might be able to park the kite !! Sweet
If you are on a 14m as Daniel suggests the wind speed plus the apparent wind might provide enough grunt to keep you on the plane with the kite parked. But try the same on an 11m - given the same wind speed, rider weight and board well it wont work just as trying to kite with a 6m in 12 knots wont!! Funny how we have different size kite hey !!
Apparent wind also works for windsurfing - ie pump the sail to get on the plane then park, and speed sailing as well - and its also why it sometimes gets scary kitesurfing - the faster you go kite the more power it seems to generate!! ( hard edging slows the kite and kills the power - go figure!!)
Now Im going to sit back with a red wine and wait for the red thumbs LOL
You're right Uncle Plums - www.coastalwindsports.com/BetterBuggyBasics.html - about half way down.
I always find that you get your self up and going then work the kite up and down thru the window. When ure really cranking park the kite let the bar out a bit until you feel it start to go even faster then hang on. Works for me. But hey i am only learning.
Give a kite to a braindead bogan from safety Bay and he will be doing great tricks by the end of the month.
Give a kite to a highly educated engineer and he will mow the lawn for three years because he spends so much time trying to optimise his speed and upwind angles for flawless efficiency according to the vectors.
Thinking about it won't help, just practice, and get a huge twintip or race board for when the wind sucks and you still want to go out.
Select to expand quotewishy said...
Give a kite to a braindead bogan from safety Bay and he will be doing great tricks by the end of the month.
Give a kite to a highly educated engineer and he will mow the lawn for three years because he spends so much time trying to optimise his speed and upwind angles for flawless efficiency according to the vectors.
Thinking about it won't help, just practice, and get a huge twintip or race board for when the wind sucks and you still want to go out.
Now I love this one, very witty!!!
Just gotta ask.......were you doing cool tricks at the end of the month or did you mow lawns for 3 years?
Very funny post!!!
Friction… In light winds your board may not get on the plane or stay on it, and bigger kites have a bigger chord (look it up) which again cause more friction
