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A Death Loop and Lessons Learned!

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Created by SimonDreyer > 9 months ago, 2 Nov 2015
SimonDreyer
WA, 82 posts
2 Nov 2015 3:17PM
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Hi Folks
On Friday I was kiting Melville Beach and had a scary little moment. The wind was onshore and blowing about 14-18kn due to some cloud and an impending rain front. I was about 50m off the shore and dropped the kite in the water during a lull. The kite was directly downwind and managed to fall on it's back and fill with water. As a result I couldn't steer it round to the side to relaunch. I decided to back-launch it by giving the front lines a big tug. The kite launched perfectly but one of the steering lines, with it's foam cover, had drifted round and got caught underneath my harness hook (I was standing in waist deep water). The result was that the kite went into an immediate death loop and started dragging me towards the shore. I immediately went for my safety but even though the hook disengaged on the chicken loop, because the foam cover on the steering line (Airush) was now being forced hard up behind the chicken loop by the tension on the line, the loop did not release from the hook. A lot of stuff goes through your mind when you are being dragged towards the road and your safety doesn't release let me tell you! With nothing left to loose I decided to grab the right hand steering line and try to flag the kite as much as possible. I didn't know at this stage what was preventing the safety from releasing but luckily I chose the right one and as I started hauling it in, it released the pressure on the chicken loop and it released! When I got to the beach the line and foam cover were still stuck behind the hook.
I ended up with the kite about 10m from the beach.
I suppose the lessons learnt are, If you are going to back-launch, make sure your steering lines are clear and that any changed condition, like an onshore breeze (not usual at Melville), has it's own dangers.
I am not sure of the purpose of the foam covers other than buoyancy but I might think about removing them?
Cheers S

harry potter
VIC, 2777 posts
2 Nov 2015 6:33PM
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Scary how much power a death looping kite generates..
Your leash should also have a quick release..... But only as a very last resort : because the free kite could end up hitting someone or on the road.

RPM
WA, 1549 posts
2 Nov 2015 5:36PM
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I started reading your post and got to the 8th and 9th word then lost interest pretty quickly.

Why people even kite there has me beat... No room for error, just a matter of time before someone does a superman onto the house roof/road/Old Gumtree ... It's mainly euros and noobs which is a recipe for disaster in that location.

Glad you didn't polax yourself too hard.

Oh Waveslave..... Are you there??? Please analyse this event for us...

loftsofwind
QLD, 226 posts
2 Nov 2015 7:53PM
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Plastic bits are to prevent the lines from wrapping around your body when lines go slack.

Ive been in a lot of situations where having them has been handy. e.g. When kite hindenburgs and falls from sky

weebitbreezy
633 posts
2 Nov 2015 6:27PM
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Removing the foam pads from the lines won't stop the lines getting caught up in your harness hook. That's your problem. That's the bit you want to fix. I'm glad you weren't injured but remember to do line checks (for snags and tangles) whenever you are launching a kite - even if you are already in the water.

The foam floats are intended to keep the bar buoyant so that the bar doesn't sink and snag on underwater debris.

Peahi
VIC, 1481 posts
2 Nov 2015 9:31PM
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harry potter said..
Scary how much power a death looping kite generates..
Your leash should also have a quick release..... But only as a very last resort : because the free kite could end up hitting someone or on the road.


HP: From what I read it looks like he could not even get to the stage of completely releasing the kite, the steering line caught around the harness hook, then preventing chicken loop from releasing, so not even near the leash release / full kite release stage.

SD: I would be sh**ting myself in that situation too, good thing you had brains to grab the other line and luckily the wind was light. I suppose another alternative would be to try and grab the front lines? Or go into foetal position and hope your kite crashes into something. I have a harness that releases the spreader bar but I have doubts this would work under heavy load.

Not sure what the point of foam covers are either, maybe flotation and/or ironically to prevent lines getting caught around the bar. I have the Cab 2014 bar and it doesn't have anything like this and its almost too easy to get a steering line caught behind the bar (its happened to me one occasion).

KiteBud
WA, 1599 posts
2 Nov 2015 7:01PM
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Lines can only get caught around you or your harness if they go slack, which is the first cause of your problem here.

The lesson to learn here is if your lines ever go slack you must make sure they don't tangle anywhere. If the wind was stronger and the same scenario happened, your kite would've started to launch and deathloop without any input from the pilot. This is how some people ended up drowning unfortunately :(

As mentioned above, the floaters are irrelevant here, so are safety systems (apart from the hook knife).

If you ever have slack lines again my advice is to be very quick to check and fix tangles before the lines go back in tension, but it's not easy and it takes experience.

Avoiding dodgy winds and on-shore winds is also something to consider.

Christian

waveslave
WA, 4263 posts
2 Nov 2015 8:14PM
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RPM said..


Oh Waveslave..... Are you there??? Please analyse this event for us...



You rang. ^^^

Simply put, death-leashes kill.

It's on record. Do a search.

The term 'safety' leash is a misnomer.

The Industry prefers to call kite tethers, > safetys <

It's laughable, but it ain't funny.

In fact, this third rate kite management system has been the direct cause of many fatalities.

It's fken tragic.








Deeg
WA, 34 posts
3 Nov 2015 8:53AM
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I swear the last few times I went to melville, I would always see atleast one person death loop onto the beach and luckily have a random guy setting up catch their kite before it goes into a tree.
I would avoid kiting there, last time I went a noob crashed his kite (from behind me) right in front of me and when I went to stop and change direction he relaunched into mine... Fun times..

SimonDreyer
WA, 82 posts
3 Nov 2015 9:50AM
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cbulota, you are right, it was when I dropped the bar to grab the front lines to relaunch that the problem happened. Bear in mind that it was a completely calm situation, I was standing in the water with the kite wallowing down wind not looking like it was going anywhere. When I pulled the front lines I was not actually expecting the kite to launch but just to try and get it out of the water so I could move it round. It just happened to coincide with the breeze coming back in and launched. The kite in question is a 14m Lithium so reasonably docile but with a good bottom end pull. As with any accident it happened very quickly going from a controlled calm situation to a problem very quickly. I had considered the fact that if the kite launched downwind but would possibly pull me a couple of meters until it got out of the power zone but that was a judgement that relied on everything going to plan, and it didn't :-)

high as a kite
SA, 1312 posts
3 Nov 2015 1:15PM
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Glad to hear your ok but I think it really come down to you not reading the conditions.

From where I sit it looks like Pilot was at fault and not the gear.

Juddy
WA, 1103 posts
3 Nov 2015 11:42AM
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waveslave said..


RPM said..


Oh Waveslave..... Are you there??? Please analyse this event for us...





You rang. ^^^

Simply put, death-leashes kill.

It's on record. Do a search.

The term 'safety' leash is a misnomer.

The Industry prefers to call kite tethers, > safetys <

It's laughable, but it ain't funny.

In fact, this third rate kite management system has been the direct cause of many fatalities.

It's fken tragic.










Dear Slave - can you advise where/when/how many fatalities have occurred due to the use of leashes?

Whilst there is a very strong argument against the use of board leashes, which are obviously very different to 'safety leashes' - your claims over the years about fatalities due to the use of safety leashes/tethers is interesting to say the least.

Additionally, can you explain what system you have in place (pics would be good also if you have them) that you use to minimise the loss of a kite? Or are you sufficiently cashed up to have a 'devil may care, I'll just buy a new kite" attitude?

Serious questions to a serious issue.

cheers

Juddy

SimonDreyer
WA, 82 posts
3 Nov 2015 1:14PM
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high as a kite said..
Glad to hear your ok but I think it really come down to you not reading the conditions.

From where I sit it looks like Pilot was at fault and not the gear.


And I would agree with you! :-), my fault entirely.

SUPSurferQLD
QLD, 333 posts
3 Nov 2015 4:01PM
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SimonDreyer said..
With nothing left to loose I decided to grab the right hand steering line and try to flag the kite as much as possible.


This is why I always self launch, self land, because each and every time I get to practice bringing a powered kite up and down safely, using everything except the safety systems.

Obviously you have the same skills and probably prevented yourself from injury or even death if it had gone on for any longer

fingerbone
NSW, 921 posts
3 Nov 2015 7:34PM
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I recon I would have reached for the knife...But who knows when its actually happening.

waveslave
WA, 4263 posts
3 Nov 2015 7:22PM
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Juddy said..

waveslave said..

You rang. ^^^




Additionally, can you explain what system you have in place (pics would be good also if you have them) that you use to minimise the loss of a kite? Or are you sufficiently cashed up to have a 'devil may care, I'll just buy a new kite" attitude?



Dude, I don't do runaway kite.

lol.

Whenever I see a runaway kite, it's always due to a death-leash snapping.

Oh, the irony.

Gorgo
VIC, 5099 posts
3 Nov 2015 11:34PM
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high as a kite said..
Glad to hear your ok but I think it really come down to you not reading the conditions.

From where I sit it looks like Pilot was at fault and not the gear.


It had nothing to do with the conditions. It was a simple operator error. He relaunched without ensuring his lines were clear. Simple. Avoidable. A fairly easy mistake to make if you're inexperienced ... and a little bit unlucky.

I don't agree with waveslave that leashes are dangerous. I do think that the blind hope that a safety system is going to save you is optimistic at best, and downright stupid at worst.

Two things work to make you a safer kiter:
1. Understanding how your kite really works.
2. Having broad safety margins and preserving them at all costs.

Peahi
VIC, 1481 posts
4 Nov 2015 1:04PM
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not really sure what this incident has to do with a safety/bypass leash, simply put the kite started looping because the steering line was stuck in the harness hook which also prevented the safety from releasing, no leash involved.

high as a kite
SA, 1312 posts
4 Nov 2015 1:41PM
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Gorgo said..

high as a kite said..
Glad to hear your ok but I think it really come down to you not reading the conditions.

From where I sit it looks like Pilot was at fault and not the gear.



It had nothing to do with the conditions. It was a simple operator error. He relaunched without ensuring his lines were clear. Simple. Avoidable. A fairly easy mistake to make if you're inexperienced ... and a little bit unlucky.



You TOSSA,
The conditions caused the error in judgement

Quote - The wind was onshore and blowing about 14-18kn due to some cloud and an impending rain front. I was about 50m off the shore and dropped the kite in the water during a lull.

Happy winds Simon.

Ozone Kites Aus
NSW, 884 posts
Site Sponsor
4 Nov 2015 7:34PM
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waveslave said..


Dude, I don't do runaway kite.

lol.

Whenever I see a runaway kite, it's always due to a death-leash snapping.

Oh, the irony.


Thats just a stupid big ego statement and utter bulls1t. If you kite with no leash, then you will have a runaway kite, at some time, thats assuming you are smart enough to actually push the release on your kite? You do have a safety release in your chicken loop don't you?
Otherwise the only way your stupid statement could be true is if you connect permanently with no possible way of releasing the kite in an emergency.

So which one is it?
No leash and the eventual forced runaway
Or permanent attachment and eventual dragging of your dumb dead body behind your kite for someone else to clean up?

Peahi
VIC, 1481 posts
4 Nov 2015 8:49PM
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TerryMcTool said..


waveslave said..


Dude, I don't do runaway kite.

lol.

Whenever I see a runaway kite, it's always due to a death-leash snapping.

Oh, the irony.




Thats just a stupid big ego statement and utter bulls1t. If you kite with no leash, then you will have a runaway kite, at some time, thats assuming you are smart enough to actually push the release on your kite? You do have a safety release in your chicken loop don't you?
Otherwise the only way your stupid statement could be true is if you connect permanently with no possible way of releasing the kite in an emergency.

So which one is it?
No leash and the eventual forced runaway
Or permanent attachment and eventual dragging of your dumb dead body behind your kite for someone else to clean up?



Go Terry. Cab IDS bars/2014 bar require no leash (theoretically, unless you unhook) as the CL is solid, however I had one incident whereupon mid-boost my kite decided to unhook and fly off. I had no leash on and forgot to put the DD aka "security pin" in the hook. Since then always a leash, short ones much better.

There was an old video/thread of a kiter still attached to their looping kite via their leash at the rear of the harness, unable to release the leash and getting dragged backwards but haven't seen any recently. Still half a brain would think to release it even from the back.

But from what WS is saying you need secondary leash in case the first one snaps?

waveslave
WA, 4263 posts
4 Nov 2015 6:44PM
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Select to expand quote
TerryMcTool said..


waveslave said..


Dude, I don't do runaway kite.

lol.

Whenever I see a runaway kite, it's always due to a death-leash snapping.

Oh, the irony.




Thats just a stupid big ego statement and utter bulls1t. If you kite with no leash, then you will have a runaway kite, at some time, thats assuming you are smart enough to actually push the release on your kite? You do have a safety release in your chicken loop don't you?
Otherwise the only way your stupid statement could be true is if you connect permanently with no possible way of releasing the kite in an emergency.

So which one is it?
No leash and the eventual forced runaway
Or permanent attachment and eventual dragging of your dumb dead body behind your kite for someone else to clean up?



lol.

Where's your shopguy badge on your avatar-bear, Terry ?

I mean Steve.

You're not trying to sell me one of your cheap arse Chinese death-leashes again, are you ?

No deal dude.

Ozone Kites Aus
NSW, 884 posts
Site Sponsor
5 Nov 2015 7:19AM
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Yeah was never a fan of that Cab setup, apart from the complexity of the method needed to re-assemble the chicken loop, that "leashless" idea was a possibility that was probably exploited by many more other than you. I think that was the first year cab promoted the short leash, which I think is the best leash for 80% of riders that never unhook.
The next best idea that has not gained universal appeal yet is the elimination of the hook. Kitesurfers who never unhook, do not need a hook, its just another thing that can catch lines, or let you chicken loop come off, and ruin your day.

WS is not talking back up leashes, he is crapping on about his illogical idea that all leashes are death leashes. He promotes no leash as the safest option, but then claims, illogically again, that he does not do "runaway kites". Best advice I can share is ignore him and wear a short leash.

purpleninja
55 posts
6 Nov 2015 2:02PM
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they should make a harness with a safety to release harness if all else fails

Peahi
VIC, 1481 posts
6 Nov 2015 9:37PM
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purpleninja said..
they should make a harness with a safety to release harness if all else fails


some of them do. I have a Cab harness 2011(?) that has a spreader bar quick release. never had to use it so cannot vouch for its ability to release under extreme load.

Underoath
QLD, 2433 posts
6 Nov 2015 11:19PM
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loftsofwind said...
Plastic bits are to prevent the lines from wrapping around your body when lines go slack.

Ive been in a lot of situations where having them has been handy. e.g. When kite hindenburgs and falls from sky


This should not be red thumbed. Wake up people.

Just2807
180 posts
7 Nov 2015 12:16AM
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purpleninja said..
they should make a harness with a safety to release harness if all else fails



When i was noobshopping for equipment, every harness (seat and waist) had "red string" quick release. 2012+

If i can count well, i have "too much" safety releases. 1 on the harness, 2 on safety leash (both ends), 2 on a kite (1 flagg, 1 dics - IDS, hooked in).

I just hook bypass leash on little ring connected to flagging line (both center lines flag, old system) and when i activate safety, it goes straight to safety leash. From there, 3 points for total disconnect.

Any1 using shorter leash for this setup? I got "standard" long and sometimes messes with a bar while water relaunching.

Peahi
VIC, 1481 posts
7 Nov 2015 7:45AM
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Just2807 said..
I just hook bypass leash on little ring connected to flagging line (both center lines flag, old system) and when i activate safety, it goes straight to safety leash. From there, 3 points for total disconnect.

Any1 using shorter leash for this setup? I got "standard" long and sometimes messes with a bar while water relaunching.


put yourself in this situation. when the primary release fails, the other systems also fail so if your kite is looping and you cannot release you can only hope you can wiggle out or release your harness so really there are only 2, if you have a harness release that is.

plenty of talk on short leashes here (or lack thereof)
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Kitesurfing/General/Dont-show-us-your-hook/



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"A Death Loop and Lessons Learned!" started by SimonDreyer