I am making some good beginner foil progress.
But in very light breezes my regular kites are hard to keep in the sky in sub 10kn plus near impossible with my skill to relaunch off water.
So what is the feed back on strutless or one strut very light weight kites for foiling?
My take is that the weight matters more than the number of struts. Single or strutless kites are a way to reduce the weight but there are plenty of decent light weight 3 strut kites around at a similar weight. A single (or multiple) strut helps with relaunch as it helps keep the canopy off the water. However, in sub 10 knots be prepared to have to make the occasional swim or expect to wait for the wind gust occasionally to relaunch regardless.
Below 10 knots (consistent) you are starting to get into the incremental gains anyway. e.g. 8-10 knots fine on a light weight kite. 7-10 fine on a strutless. 5-10 foil kites and mad skills only. My point is that for regular sub 10 knot wind, you need to be looking at a foil kite.
I have gone for light weight 3 strut kites as the handling at the top end is much better and I share my quiver between trying to learn to foil and riding twin tips. My 12m weighs 3kg which is on a par for most single strut kites (Mono, zeeko notus air, solo) but about 1kg heavier than the BRM cloud. If you surf a lot, the strutless and single strut kites will fit well as you'll be changing size down before getting to the top end, if you ride twin tips then you might prefer a light 3 strut kite instead.
With foiling expanding into so many niche areas, it makes sense that kite design will follow.
the foil kites will tick boxes in racing and flat water cruising( I use the term 'flat water' here loosely).
above 15knots your normal 3 strut kite is also fine.
but if you are looking to waves on a foil and either a SB or TT then the new generations of single or zero strut kites are a great fit. Most were designed as a travel kite that would work in waves and by default work for foiling.
the Notus Air was designed for foiling in waves and by default works for waves.
the Brm was designed for a specific style of foiling and by default works in waves.
But what I have been discovering is that aside from some extra canopy flutter, they can also hold their own in the top end(my only experience here is my Notus Air 8m).
I guess your experience is different to mine. I haven't flown the Notus Air (and it no longer seems to be an option to buy as the standard 3 strut Notus seems to have replaced it) but I did own the 1st gen solo and I still have a Mono (both 12m). Neither of which were pleasant to fly in 20 knots. The solo would try and rip your arms off and the Mono became very heavy and a lot less refined (surges back and forth in the gusts). Yes you can fly them but in contrast to say a North Evo of the same size they aren't fun at that end.
Sure you can change down to a smaller size to stay in the sweet spot and thats great for surfing but for me, 20 knots should be great fun on a 12m and twin tip. I don't know the liquid force range so won't comment on the solo, but the Mono misses that little bit of fun that the rest of the North range has as the wind picks up (on a twin tip). Speaking to people who use the Naish trip, they have a similar view. This style (strutless and mono strut) is designed to be great for surf and foiling, but, not as good for twin tip use.
While the Notus has evolved to be lighter wind biased and easier for foiling in the 10 & 12 sizes. And more foil friendly in the smaller sizes.
The Notus Air is most definitely still there.
i can't speak for the other brand single strut kites in top end but my Notus Air 8 in comparison to my still personal favourite the 5strut Krush 9m, only gives away some gust stability and landing control once we get into the 30 knots zone.
While I might gloat just a bit. Maybe if you follow this link back to the test on light wind kites, you may find the answers you are looking for.
Ok so it's The French Kiteboarder magazine
I ride Clouds from 8 knots (17m C2) to 40 knots (3.5m .5) on foils, surfboards and lightwind cruiser TT's ....... They launch in almost nothing, drift very well, turn quickly. They are a really superb kite for the niche they fit into.
I know have the latest model and will give them a test this coming weekend.
I am in Mudgee atm no wind and no usable water.
But early into foiling as per my previous posts.
I have reached a point where I know I require a very light wind kite that will stay in the air so keen on the results on the new kites bigtone...
Warwickl, I think I must be at a similar progression stage on the foil as you. Am looking at switching my TT-focused kites into more foiling-friendly ones. Not keen on foil kites (not really interested so much in speed but enjoy just cruising and potentially swell in the future). Have researched strutless/one strut kites but concluded (a) similar to weebitbreezy, that you can get "thinner" 3 strut kites with good depower that can be almost as light as the strutless/one strut kites and (b) you can no longer get Clouds delivered ex-USA (bigtone, how did you get your latest Cloud?).
On basis of the above I'm leaning to 3 strut surf kites (although I don't surf)...so for example, Ozone Reo, North Neo, Slingshot SST. Larger (maybe 12m) for light wind (12-15knts) and smaller (maybe 7m) for stronger wind (15-20knts).
Interested in whether you progressed your thinking on kite selection or others' input.
cheers
I have 3 strut wave kites (7 m to 11m) at an average of 3.5 kg, recently purchased a 9 and 12m Cloud kites second hand - average 2 kg. Sub 10 kn down to about 5kn the Cloud kites continue to behave while the strutted kites require a lot of attention and frequently fall and impossible to relaunch.
The Cloud kites have far less swing weight so much kinder to those with golfers elbow (me and now no issue).
Cloud power control and responsiveness in ultra light wind on longer lines is excellent.
To date only Kited with Clouds in max of 15k so stay tuned.
I expect as others have commented that above 15k wind 3 strut kites would also be adequate for foiling.
Hi Tootharoo,
Don't forget to add Liquid Force Wow (3 Strut) kite into your suggestion list. I changed over kiting style similar to you and have found it to be a great kite for the surfboard, foil and boosts well to play again on the TT. Thin Leading edge with very high pressure, keeps it light, rigid and quick through the window. Pivots on it's self if needed for down looping.
Keep it in mind I don't think you'd be disappointed with a 7/9 & 12. That covers everything worth getting wet for.
Thanks Spartacus. Will add it onto the list. Already got some Envy's so keeping it in the LF family is not a bad idea.
Hey Warwickl, as far as light wind relaunch goes, have you learned to reverse launch yet? In super light winds sometimes that is the only way I can get a kite back up, whether it's a Cloud or Reo. I push the bar all the way out and reach as high up on the steering lines as I can and pull hard. In deep water it's obviously harder as you lose tension very quickly, but for the most part I can usually get the kite up and not kill the session.
Flysurfer are also about to launch a new 3 Strut Kite called the Stoke. With their experience in light wind, it will be interesting to see how it translates in the LEI space. The 30sec preview clip was launched on socaial media last night. The formal launch is Thursday German time.
www.facebook.com/flysurferkiteboarding/videos/1354586387909711/
Select to expand quotedafish said..
Hey Warwickl, as far as light wind relaunch goes, have you learned to reverse launch yet? In super light winds sometimes that is the only way I can get a kite back up, whether it's a Cloud or Reo. I push the bar all the way out and reach as high up on the steering lines as I can and pull hard. In deep water it's obviously harder as you lose tension very quickly, but for the most part I can usually get the kite up and not kill the session.
Yes I can reverse launch and since foiling often was the only way to get my strutted kites up.
Cloud are easy but I found the limit when above water about 3 to 4 kn but on the water almost no wind. I could stand up at one point but still easier to just walk in.??
Select to expand quotespartacus said..
Hi Tootharoo,
Don't forget to add Liquid Force Wow (3 Strut) kite into your suggestion list. I changed over kiting style similar to you and have found it to be a great kite for the surfboard, foil and boosts well to play again on the TT. Thin Leading edge with very high pressure, keeps it light, rigid and quick through the window. Pivots on it's self if needed for down looping.
Keep it in mind I don't think you'd be disappointed with a 7/9 & 12. That covers everything worth getting wet for.
How much does it weigh (kite and bridles only) out of interest? Do you have luggage scales to measure?
I have had a Naish Trip 10m for nearly two years now - absolutely love the range from the one kite - with a door board or skim board, usable low end is 10kts. With a foil I can get down to 8kts. Kite is stable in air in anything above 7kts. Top end for me is 20-23kts. Boosts well!
For me this has been a revelation of a kite, as it becomes almost the one kite to take anywhere. Small and easy to pump, fast to turn when flying. Only downside is to weight the leading edge on a beach to keep it down, but hardly the biggest of issues for all the positives.
I am riding my 10m when guys are on their 12-17m kites! Always amazes everyone on the beach, when they read the size of kite!
If you are heavier than me, then I would recommend a 12m size.
Not recommended as a beginner kite, as good knowledge of kite dynamics is really needed, but relaunch and everything works perfectly. Just a shame Naish stopped making it and switched to a single strut version (Boxer) for this year. Presumably to widen the appeal for the kite. I haven't flown the Boxer, just hope the same range is there.
I also use a normal strutted 7m kite for everything above 23kts.
Note - My weight is 70kg and I have been flying power kites for 20 years - everything from foils, ARCs and LEIs - not affiliated with any brand, just addicted to kiting!!
Select to expand quoteNeptune26 said..
I have had a Naish Trip 10m for nearly two years now - absolutely love the range from the one kite - with a door board or skim board, usable low end is 10kts. With a foil I can get down to 8kts. Kite is stable in air in anything above 7kts. Top end for me is 20-23kts. Boosts well!
For me this has been a revelation of a kite, as it becomes almost the one kite to take anywhere. Small and easy to pump, fast to turn when flying. Only downside is to weight the leading edge on a beach to keep it down, but hardly the biggest of issues for all the positives.
I am riding my 10m when guys are on their 12-17m kites! Always amazes everyone on the beach, when they read the size of kite!
If you are heavier than me, then I would recommend a 12m size.
Not recommended as a beginner kite, as good knowledge of kite dynamics is really needed, but relaunch and everything works perfectly. Just a shame Naish stopped making it and switched to a single strut version (Boxer) for this year. Presumably to widen the appeal for the kite. I haven't flown the Boxer, just hope the same range is there.
I also use a normal strutted 7m kite for everything above 23kts.
Note - My weight is 70kg and I have been flying power kites for 20 years - everything from foils, ARCs and LEIs - not affiliated with any brand, just addicted to kiting!!
Forgot to add that I use two different line lengths. I have two bars, one with 25m lines for light winds and a 21m line set for heavy winds.
I always find having more boards and less kites is an easier solution if wind strength changes as well as being more cost effective over the many years I have been kitesurfing.
One of dudes I kite with has one 10m Griffin AX, one TT and one slingshot hoverglide.
I turn up with a 17, 13, 10, 8, 5, a zeeko, surfboard, TT.
And....I might get him on 2 knots at the low end and maybe a few at the top end. But basically we kite the same range.
He has mad skills and one kite!
Select to expand quotebigtone667 said..
One of dudes I kite with has one 10m Griffin AX, one TT and one slingshot hoverglide.
I turn up with a 17, 13, 10, 8, 5, a zeeko, surfboard, TT.
And....I might get him on 2 knots at the low end and maybe a few at the top end. But basically we kite the same range.
He has mad skills and one kite!
Thanks toenail you're too kind
Switch have been developing a single strut foil specific kite for nearly 3 years which I have been following for that whole time. They finally hosed down the whole project about 3 months ago because they couldn't get a satisfactory design. The latest is they now will produce their Helium 3 strut LW kite in a broard range of sizes making it a foil/wave and LW kite. Supposedly available on November
I also have a Naish trip what a kite so simple and flys in 7knts what Can I say wow like the previous poster said shame they stopped making them its a 12m though
I have been debating whether to get the Zeeko Notus Air 12m.
but seeing as my 8m has me foiling in winds at the edge of even the reverse launch capabilities of the 8, then using the 12 would be well below the relaunch wind threshold.
im just not liking that swim thought.
Select to expand quoteRAL INN said..
I have been debating whether to get the Zeeko Notus Air 12m.
but seeing as my 8m has me foiling in winds at the edge of even the reverse launch capabilities of the 8, then using the 12 would be well below the relaunch wind threshold.
im just not liking that swim thought.
Never having had a single or no strut kite I cant really comment on the relaunch capabilities of theses design kites. I does make me a little nervous though and I'm feeling a 3 strut LW/foil specific kite could be the fit for me.
The relaunch is just as a 3 strut kite plus the added reverse launch as backup.
The problem is their capabilities in light winds to be foiling means you are out in wind below the normal relaunch threshold.
my dilemma is that if my 8m is pushing into that territory, then going for a 12m would mean it being used totally in that wind range so you would be heading out knowing if you drop it there is no hope but to swim.
I have found even with my limited skill that Cloud strutless kites relaunch off flat water in much lighter winds than my 3 strut kites ie 5 to 6kn + is mostly ok with a Cloud.
I have not tried in surf.
Select to expand quoteRAL INN said..
The relaunch is just as a 3 strut kite plus the added reverse launch as backup.
The problem is their capabilities in light winds to be foiling means you are out in wind below the normal relaunch threshold.
my dilemma is that if my 8m is pushing into that territory, then going for a 12m would mean it being used totally in that wind range so you would be heading out knowing if you drop it there is no hope but to swim.
Yes I'm with you on that... my mantra has become 'if I can relaunch I have a session'. That put a highish ( 14knts)ceiling on my low end because I'm using quite heavy 5 strut Switch Nitros. No doubt there will still be limits but I'm hoping to be able to push the easily relaunchable limit to as low as 10 knts with a LW/foil 3 strut kite. I would really be hesitant to take chances if there was a possibility of sub 10 knts... but who's to know if that will or wont happen on any given day.
I'm 80 kg, 23 sessions on foil. Using North Mono 7-9-12.
I'm foiling in winds pretty light. In the lulls I might not be able to relaunch if I drop the kite, but I haven't done that yet.
I'm also trying to follow the principle of only going out if I can relaunch.
Mono 12 definitely stays in air in wind below deep water launch speed, could be difference between windspeed 27 m up and at sea level.
Consistently, I'm going out on kites one size smaller than others at my spots. If a guy my weight is powered on a 17, I'll easily go on my 12 with good power. If they are barely going and not staying upwind, I can still go on the 12. I don't have a wind meter and it's impossible to know what the wind is up there. But I'm going out in wind that is according to my wind site, lulling to 9 knots, below I'm not going out.
That said, I'm having a blast.
Foil kites are another option. They tending to hang I the sky by themselves from 7 knots. Way less chance of crashing them in sub 10
The amount of struts on a kite won't impact it's water relaunching capabilities in lighter winds
The shape/profile of the kite, more specifically the leading edge shape/profile is what will influence this the most.
In less than 15 knots, the simple fact that your kite gets wet (or worse Wet AND Sandy) adds a considerable amount of weight to it, which pretty much makes any kite with fewer struts as heavy or Heavier than a 5 strut kite that is DRY!
Furthermore, your ability to relaunch any kite in light winds and deep water depends on various other factors like the current and the actual wind speed and wind density at the surface of the water, which can be very different from one light wind day to the next!
On some light wind days you'll have very little difference between the wind speed 25 meters up and the wind speed at the surface of water. On Other light wind days, you can have HALF or even Less than Half the wind speed at the surface of water and significantly more wind higher up. The image below is a perfect example of this. That day, the wind was practically non-existent at the surface (3 knots or less) and up where the kite is, a steady and dense 7 to 9 knots breeze.
In winds closer to 10-12 knots or less, the main focus should be to keep the kite DRY and try your best to avoid dropping it in the water altogether.
I said it before but I'll say it again, in low winds Flying Skills is the most important factor, then using longer, thinner lines comes next.
When foiling in winds below 15 knots, using standard lines thickness and length makes practically no sense to me
Fewer struts kites are an asset for foiling in general, but definitely NOT a necessity. I regularly use this 5 struts - 12m kite you see above in winds of less than 10 knots for foiling.
Foil kites will collapse and invert more easily in light winds, so not always a great option UNLESS you are a HIGHLY skilled foil kite pilot, and there aren't many of those around.
Christian
