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Snake Bite

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Created by Crusoe > 9 months ago, 20 Sep 2019
Crusoe
QLD, 1197 posts
20 Sep 2019 6:45AM
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Didn't know whether to post this in the funny images thread but was just amazed to see you can buy something like this. Seem like a pretty out dated method.





FormulaNova
WA, 15090 posts
20 Sep 2019 7:52AM
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Is it? What is the current method, and does it rely on just waiting until you can get to hospital?


What if you have no hope of reaching a hospital, is this then a valid approach?

kato
VIC, 3511 posts
20 Sep 2019 12:46PM
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American system. No good in Oz and would increase your chances of death. Snake venom is transported by the lymphatic system not by the blood. Staying still and applying a constricting bandage over the whole limb will save your life. Splint as well

Tamble
194 posts
20 Sep 2019 10:48AM
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No, no, no
Do not cut the wound - it allows more venom to enter.
Do not swab or wash the wound - external residues of the venom are used to identify the snake.
Current first aid standards do not recommend sucking the wound; in any case the puncture wounds are inadequate for that.
You do not cut the blood flow to the wounded limb

In Australian snakes the venom travels in the lymphatic system.

You compression bind the wound and the limb it is on ( not to the point of cutting off blood flow), to reduce the spread.
Keep the patient as still as possible (and if alone and you absolutely must move - use a 'dead limb' approach to the bitten limb. But really try not to move at all. And get to hospital ASAP

I was told the first Australians used a technique of burying the bitten person in sand; which actually achieves all the current first aid recommendations (compress and keep still). Evidently (so I was told) the body can process the venom out of the system if it doesn't move within the body (but don't hold me to that).

japie
NSW, 7145 posts
20 Sep 2019 1:32PM
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I believe there is no difference world wide.

If if you get bitten by a snake I guess there is a minuscule chance that one of the fangs may penetrate a blood vessel. Some African snakes for instance puff adders have particularly long fangs but otherwise:


As we approach Summer

Snake Bites in Australia

That bite of summer has well and truly come early this year and with that heat, comes snakes.
3000 bites are reported annually.
300-500 hospitalisations
2-3 deaths annually.
Average time to death is 12 hours. The urban myth that you are bitten in the yard and die before you can walk from your chook pen back to the house is a load of rubbish.
While not new, the management of snake bite (like a flood/fire evacuation plan or CPR) should be refreshed each season.
Let's start with a
Basic overview.
There are five genus of snakes that will harm us (seriously)
Browns, Blacks, Adders, Tigers and Taipans.
All snake venom is made up of huge proteins (like egg white). When bitten, a snake injects some venom into the meat of your limb (NOT into your blood).
This venom can not be absorbed into the blood stream from the bite site.
It travels in a fluid transport system in your body called the lymphatic system (not the blood stream).
Now this fluid (lymph) is moved differently to blood.
Your heart pumps blood around, so even when you are lying dead still, your blood still circulates around the body. Lymph fluid is different. It moves around with physical muscle movement like bending your arm, bending knees, wriggling fingers and toes, walking/exercise etc.
Now here is the thing. Lymph fluid becomes blood after these lymph vessels converge to form one of two large vessels (lymphatic trunks)which are connected to veins at the base of the neck.
Back to the snake bite site.
When bitten, the venom has been injected into this lymph fluid (which makes up the bulk of the water in your tissues).
The only way that the venom can get into your blood stream is to be moved from the bite site in the lymphatic vessels. The only way to do this is to physically move the limbs that were bitten.
Stay still!!! Venom can't move if the victim doesn't move.
Stay still!!
Remember people are not bitten into their blood stream.
In the 1980s a technique called Pressure immobilisation bandaging was developed to further retard venom movement. It completely stops venom /lymph transport toward the blood stream.
A firm roll bandage is applied directly over the bite site (don't wash the area).
Technique:
Three steps: keep them still
Step 1
Apply a bandage over the bite site, to an area about 10cm above and below the bite.
Step 2:
Then using another elastic roller bandage, apply a firm wrap from Fingers/toes all the way to the armpit/groin.
The bandage needs to be firm, but not so tight that it causes fingers or toes to turn purple or white. About the tension of a sprain bandage.
Step 3:
Splint the limb so the patient can't walk or bend the limb.
Do nots:
Do not cut, incise or suck the venom.
Do not EVER use a tourniquet
Don't remove the shirt or pants - just bandage over the top of clothing.
Remember movement (like wriggling out of a shirt or pants) causes venom movement.
DO NOT try to catch, kill or identify the snake!!! This is important.
In hospital we NO LONGER NEED to know the type of snake; it doesn't change treatment.
5 years ago we would do a test on the bite, blood or urine to identify the snake so the correct anti venom can be used.
BUT NOW...
we don't do this. Our new Antivenom neutralises the venoms of all the 5 listed snake genus, so it doesn't matter what snake bit the patient.
Read that again- one injection for all snakes!
Polyvalent is our one shot wonder, stocked in all hospitals, so most hospitals no longer stock specific Antivenins.
Australian snakes tend to have 3 main effects in differing degrees.
Bleeding - internally and bruising.
Muscles paralysed causing difficulty talking, moving & breathing.
Pain
In some snakes severe muscle pain in the limb, and days later the bite site can break down forming a nasty wound.
Allergy to snakes is rarer than winning lotto twice.
Final tips: not all bitten people are envenomated and only those starting to show symptoms above are given antivenom.
Did I mention to stay still.
Repost Ect4health
www.facebook.com/Ect4Health/

Toph
WA, 1874 posts
20 Sep 2019 11:53AM
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Select to expand quote
Tamble said..

Do not swab or wash the wound - external residues of the venom are used to identify the snake.



Maybe so, but I believe that it is not important to identify the snake anymore as there is now 1 anti-venem for all snake types.

FormulaNova
WA, 15090 posts
20 Sep 2019 1:38PM
Thumbs Up

Interesting. I have never read much about this stuff, but its good to see some people know what they are doing.

Here's the instructions for that kit.

www.coghlans.com/files/7925-Snake-Bite-Instructions.pdf

Is it wrong?

(I think we all might have assumed it is something it isn't... but its good for me to learn something.)

Macroscien
QLD, 6808 posts
20 Sep 2019 5:00PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
japie said..
I believe there is no difference world wide.

If if you get bitten by a snake I guess there is a minuscule chance that one of the fangs may penetrate a blood vessel. Some African snakes for instance puff adders have particularly long fangs but otherwise:


As we approach Summer

Snake Bites in Australia

That bite of summer has well and truly come early this year and with that heat, comes snakes.
3000 bites are reported annually.
300-500 hospitalisations
2-3 deaths annually.
Average time to death is 12 hours. The urban myth that you are bitten in the yard and die before you can walk from your chook pen back to the house is a load of rubbish.
While not new, the management of snake bite (like a flood/fire evacuation plan or CPR) should be refreshed each season.
Let's start with a
Basic overview.
There are five genus of snakes that will harm us (seriously)
Browns, Blacks, Adders, Tigers and Taipans.
All snake venom is made up of huge proteins (like egg white). When bitten, a snake injects some venom into the meat of your limb (NOT into your blood).
This venom can not be absorbed into the blood stream from the bite site.
It travels in a fluid transport system in your body called the lymphatic system (not the blood stream).
Now this fluid (lymph) is moved differently to blood.
Your heart pumps blood around, so even when you are lying dead still, your blood still circulates around the body. Lymph fluid is different. It moves around with physical muscle movement like bending your arm, bending knees, wriggling fingers and toes, walking/exercise etc.
Now here is the thing. Lymph fluid becomes blood after these lymph vessels converge to form one of two large vessels (lymphatic trunks)which are connected to veins at the base of the neck.
Back to the snake bite site.
When bitten, the venom has been injected into this lymph fluid (which makes up the bulk of the water in your tissues).
The only way that the venom can get into your blood stream is to be moved from the bite site in the lymphatic vessels. The only way to do this is to physically move the limbs that were bitten.
Stay still!!! Venom can't move if the victim doesn't move.
Stay still!!
Remember people are not bitten into their blood stream.
In the 1980s a technique called Pressure immobilisation bandaging was developed to further retard venom movement. It completely stops venom /lymph transport toward the blood stream.
A firm roll bandage is applied directly over the bite site (don't wash the area).
Technique:
Three steps: keep them still
Step 1
Apply a bandage over the bite site, to an area about 10cm above and below the bite.
Step 2:
Then using another elastic roller bandage, apply a firm wrap from Fingers/toes all the way to the armpit/groin.
The bandage needs to be firm, but not so tight that it causes fingers or toes to turn purple or white. About the tension of a sprain bandage.
Step 3:
Splint the limb so the patient can't walk or bend the limb.
Do nots:
Do not cut, incise or suck the venom.
Do not EVER use a tourniquet
Don't remove the shirt or pants - just bandage over the top of clothing.
Remember movement (like wriggling out of a shirt or pants) causes venom movement.
DO NOT try to catch, kill or identify the snake!!! This is important.
In hospital we NO LONGER NEED to know the type of snake; it doesn't change treatment.
5 years ago we would do a test on the bite, blood or urine to identify the snake so the correct anti venom can be used.
BUT NOW...
we don't do this. Our new Antivenom neutralises the venoms of all the 5 listed snake genus, so it doesn't matter what snake bit the patient.
Read that again- one injection for all snakes!
Polyvalent is our one shot wonder, stocked in all hospitals, so most hospitals no longer stock specific Antivenins.
Australian snakes tend to have 3 main effects in differing degrees.
Bleeding - internally and bruising.
Muscles paralysed causing difficulty talking, moving & breathing.
Pain
In some snakes severe muscle pain in the limb, and days later the bite site can break down forming a nasty wound.
Allergy to snakes is rarer than winning lotto twice.
Final tips: not all bitten people are envenomated and only those starting to show symptoms above are given antivenom.
Did I mention to stay still.
Repost Ect4health
www.facebook.com/Ect4Health/



Lovely, comprehensive instructional post.I did read everything twice, to remember every bit once entering my farm many km away from the nearest town. Hopefully one day this life-saving shot could be available for everyone to keep onsite.I learned also that must have kit consist of elastic bandage rather than a scalpel and blood-sucking devices.

kato
VIC, 3511 posts
20 Sep 2019 6:15PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
FormulaNova said..
Interesting. I have never read much about this stuff, but its good to see some people know what they are doing.

Here's the instructions for that kit.

www.coghlans.com/files/7925-Snake-Bite-Instructions.pdf

Is it wrong?

(I think we all might have assumed it is something it isn't... but its good for me to learn something.)


Very very wrong !! Dangerous advice

FormulaNova
WA, 15090 posts
20 Sep 2019 4:23PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
kato said..
FormulaNova said..
Interesting. I have never read much about this stuff, but its good to see some people know what they are doing.

Here's the instructions for that kit.

www.coghlans.com/files/7925-Snake-Bite-Instructions.pdf

Is it wrong?

(I think we all might have assumed it is something it isn't... but its good for me to learn something.)


Very very wrong !! Dangerous advice


Which bits?

kato
VIC, 3511 posts
20 Sep 2019 8:28PM
Thumbs Up

All of part 2.

Imax1
QLD, 4926 posts
20 Sep 2019 8:39PM
Thumbs Up

Yeah but the scalpel alone has to be worth $16.78 ?
Thats half price !

HotBodMon
NSW, 612 posts
20 Sep 2019 10:00PM
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cheers for that japie

Crusoe
QLD, 1197 posts
20 Sep 2019 10:30PM
Thumbs Up

Yes Japie, I think I'd be following the instructions you posted. I think Tarzan used a similar tecqnieque (1960's TV series) to what is mentioned in the above Snake Bite Kit. Bit surprised that SuperNova thought there might be some truth in it. Scary to think that everyone is not up to speed on snake bite treatment seeing as you can be bitten in residential areas as well as the bush.

Bit like coming across people who never learnt to swim.

japie
NSW, 7145 posts
21 Sep 2019 9:41AM
Thumbs Up

I used to collect snakes as a kid. Old man let me build a snake pit in the front garden so I have had an interest in them for a long time. We had a snake bite outfit in the house and back then the two slits and suck it out method after applying a tourniquet makes me appreciate the fact that I was never bitten!

What this did drive home for me is the mechanics of the lymph system. For quite a while now I have followed the school of thought that places lymph as one of the causes of cancer. I read of it described, the lymph system, as the sewage system of the body. Realising through the example of snake bite that lymph does not simply up and leave but requires physical effort and or changes of temperature makes me appreciate the importance of physical exercise and getting a sweat up.

I would imagine that one of the reasons why people bitten by snakes get themselves into trouble is plain panic and the activity induced by it. The pain probably doesn't help. Not the sort of incentive you need to sit down and meditate which would probably be the best course of action.

Or inaction

FormulaNova
WA, 15090 posts
21 Sep 2019 5:18PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
Crusoe said..
Yes Japie, I think I'd be following the instructions you posted. I think Tarzan used a similar tecqnieque (1960's TV series) to what is mentioned in the above Snake Bite Kit. Bit surprised that SuperNova thought there might be some truth in it. Scary to think that everyone is not up to speed on snake bite treatment seeing as you can be bitten in residential areas as well as the bush.

Bit like coming across people who never learnt to swim.


Did you guys actually read the instructions or just make assumptions because it has a scalpel and a suction cup in the kit?

They don't seem that different, so I can only assume a bunch of you haven't bothered to read them.



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"Snake Bite" started by Crusoe