Our PM comes today with another brilliant idea to build a new gas-powered station in Queensland. With all respect, I do suggest now to consider a nationwide HVDC line spanning from Perth to Brisbane instead ( while connecting Adelaide and Melbourne and Sydney on the way).
For the same money, we could assure the future until the XXII century and the opportunity to utilize endless green resources within Australia.
iea-etsap.org/E-TechDS/PDF/E12_el-t&d_KV_Apr2014_GSOK.pdf
Proposed by me HVDC line is at similar to the already planned Darwin to Singapore length.
So totally realistic, doable, but for a change benefit the whole country to utilize renewable energy resources across Australia.
Select to expand quoteCraig66 said..
Where's Pert? 
Go nuclear i say,
We have all is needed.
Copper for lines
Steel for towers
People wanting for work.
then utilizing this cheapest renewable electric energy in the world we could produce something here to add value to just substrates we export.
Sounds good.... WA afternoon sun can power the Sydney evening. Then Perth residents can light candles. 
Nuclear.
The biggest flat area that is geologically and politically stable in the world. We can bury waste 1km down and be 1000km from a town.
Its a no brainer that its now safe, Australia should be the powerhouse of the world and be insanely rich as a result. With no pollution.
Select to expand quoteMark _australia said..
Nuclear.
The biggest flat area that is geologically and politically stable in the world. We can bury waste 1km down and be 1000km from a town.
Its a no brainer that its now safe, Australia should be the powerhouse of the world and be insanely rich as a result. With no pollution.
True.
Hey Macro ....................... which project (HVDC transmission or a gas fired power plant) would you say could be implemented and constructed quickest and most importantly ............. cheapest? Remember that this proposed gas plant is not a long term solution
Select to expand quotePaddles B'mere said..
Hey Macro ....................... which project (HVDC transmission or a gas fired power plant) would you say could be implemented and constructed quickest and most importantly ............. cheapest? Remember that this proposed gas plant is not a long term solution
If he has an economic business case, he should make a proposal to AEMO. If the DCF gives a positive NPV they'll add it to the ISP and get someone to build it.
Macro, don't waste your time here, convey your ideas somewhere they can be actioned. Expressions of interest to join the consumer panel are due in 5 days.... get cracking!
aemo.com.au/en/energy-systems/major-publications/integrated-system-plan-isp/2020-integrated-system-plan-isp
Great call Harrow, I would imagine that the NPV analysis has already been done and it doesn't stack up ................. yet!
I personally believe that the government should be raising more money (taxes/excises etc) from gas exports so they can then give tax concessions to local consumers. An ABC News analysis/comment on gas pricing www.abc.net.au/news/2020-09-16/government-gas-plans-overlook-the-root-cause-of-the-problem/12666784
Select to expand quotePaddles B'mere said..
Great call Harrow, I would imagine that the NPV analysis has already been done and it doesn't stack up ................. yet!
My personal belief is that some things are worth doing regardless of the economics. If you have someone sitting around unemployed you might as well get them to build something useful. If the labour is more costly than the value of the object, who cares, the money just circulates anyway and you've produced something of value. Different story if you have 100% employment and have to divert resources away from a valuable activity, or if you are going to hire an overseas company to build whatever it is and thus send money out of the country. The economic rationalist probably don't agree, and there's a bit of nationalism, maybe even socialism, in the view as well.
Economic rationalism isn't ideal when it comes to "essential" services such as energy, however economics must lurk in all decisions and as usual, the middle ground is probably a good place to be for politicians. Use NBN as an example, the best solution was not affordable without making the stakeholders contribute additional funding; which would have put NBN out of reach of most people. Imagine asking stakeholders to pay more for their phone/data access. The best electricity generation and transmission solutions would be much the same and at the end of the day the consumer must pay for it either through direct taxes or charges; or indirectly through opportunity cost (the new high school won't get built because the funding is tied up in a HVDC transmission system)
Our problem in Australia is such that we have access of electric energy, then no use of that and all get wasted.
We have unlimited potential to set up as many solar pv farms as we want.
But then what to do with energy?
The best so far ideas are completely hopeless:
-convert into H2 ( hydrogen, liquified ) and send to Japan that could have use of that. Something like 5 % of efficiency. Complete madness.
-Then undersea cable to send electricity to Singapore ( already in process) then smart Singapurians know what to do with cheap electricity, because we dumb Australians don't have any clue.
What I do propose here: Let's use this electricity here onsite in Australia to transform other resources we do expert into valuable products, not just ore and substrates.
-there is a war going on in the world now to deliver pure Aluminium. We export ore but we could send pure aluminum instead, earn 5x much
-lithium is our next best shot into the electrifying vehicle world. Australia is potentially the biggest exporter of dirty substrates, but we could earn 10x while doing purification here onsite.
All we need to achieve is the DCHV transmission line spanning from Perth to Brisbane. Then everybody on the way could contribute renewable energy, those with ideas to use it could suck from the line for production. We don't need to be at mercy of China, the US or anybody else once we could offer high quality, refined products.I could even imagine that solar and wind power could be utilized to produce high-quality steel from the iron ore we do export. Instead of sending a limitless amount or iron ore we could send bulk steel bullets, earn 5x as much. The biggest problem Australia is facing right now is the excess of renewable energy in one place and lack in another place.
Let's start with DCHV lines. We have copper and steel to do it. We have people to do the job too.
Instead of shipping endless millions of tones of dirt, we need to ship weightless electrons over electric cable. 4000 km, that is all I am asking here. Let's be smart!
Then I have other top secret technology to convert sources to produce high quality carbon fibre. Demand for carbon fibre will skyrocket and we could supply the rest of the world while saving our forests and bushes from inferno!! All Koala wins, thank to my carbonization idea .
To be exact
all I am asking is copper wire ( one or two) 2.5cm thick hang on steel posts spanning from Perth to Brisbane.
Can be done in our lifetime?
Rocket science?
plus some convention stations on the way from time to time. All technology available off the shelf, nothing to invent, just do it now.
Just print a label
1 million volts above.
Don't climb that post!!
Select to expand quoteMark _australia said..
Nuclear.
The biggest flat area that is geologically and politically stable in the world. We can bury waste 1km down and be 1000km from a town.
Its a no brainer that its now safe, Australia should be the powerhouse of the world and be insanely rich as a result. With no pollution.
Nuclear is no longer economical. More like 100x more expensive than plain solar panel lay down on the desert.The nuclear power station now is only for countries wanting to produce an atom bomb on the side, from leftovers.
Doesn't make us any safer, having few bombs made. The global war going now is economical, the smartest wins. So far we are going to loose taking such beatings from all sides.
Nuclear fusion is ok, but unlike current fission reactors that technology is 30 years away ( and always will be! )
Solar is now and is dirt cheap on a massive scale.
But for your military strategist one question. How much kT missle you need to open nuclear reactor? If the enemy decides to strike your nuclear plant, what damage it made to sourronging, radious of radiation poisoning? Since WWII we know what bunker buster bomb is , and there is no place to deep to hide from it. In case of WWIII you want rather your solar panels get smashed then your nuclear power plant.
All new houses should be self-powered with solar/wind and a battery. Oh! but then gov makes no money. WTF must be a conspiracy
Well the government doesn't make money when they privatised the power &it's not cheaper when more than $100 million is spent on advertising to get you to choose your provider.
All that expenditure is passed on to the consumer.
If we actually had a government that governed they would make that compulsory & get some of there own back on these tax dodging corporations.
Select to expand quoteMacroscien said..
Our problem in Australia is such that we have access of electric energy, then no use of that and all get wasted.
We have unlimited potential to set up as many solar pv farms as we want.
But then what to do with energy?
The best so far ideas are completely hopeless:
-convert into H2 ( hydrogen, liquified ) and send to Japan that could have use of that. Something like 5 % of efficiency. Complete madness.
-Then undersea cable to send electricity to Singapore ( already in process) then smart Singapurians know what to do with cheap electricity, because we dumb Australians don't have any clue.
What I do propose here: Let's use this electricity here onsite in Australia to transform other resources we do expert into valuable products, not just ore and substrates.
-there is a war going on in the world now to deliver pure Aluminium. We export ore but we could send pure aluminum instead, earn 5x much
-lithium is our next best shot into the electrifying vehicle world. Australia is potentially the biggest exporter of dirty substrates, but we could earn 10x while doing purification here onsite.
All we need to achieve is the DCHV transmission line spanning from Perth to Brisbane. Then everybody on the way could contribute renewable energy, those with ideas to use it could suck from the line for production. We don't need to be at mercy of China, the US or anybody else once we could offer high quality, refined products.I could even imagine that solar and wind power could be utilized to produce high-quality steel from the iron ore we do export. Instead of sending a limitless amount or iron ore we could send bulk steel bullets, earn 5x as much. The biggest problem Australia is facing right now is the excess of renewable energy in one place and lack in another place.
Let's start with DCHV lines. We have copper and steel to do it. We have people to do the job too.
Instead of shipping endless millions of tones of dirt, we need to ship weightless electrons over electric cable. 4000 km, that is all I am asking here. Let's be smart!
Then I have other top secret technology to convert sources to produce high quality carbon fibre. Demand for carbon fibre will skyrocket and we could supply the rest of the world while saving our forests and bushes from inferno!! All Koala wins, thank to my carbonization idea .
Do aluminium smelters need to run 24 x 7?
There's not much between Perth and Brisbane, not sure why you need to connect them. Maybe just from Adelaide to Brisbane.
Select to expand quoteKiteWindnSurf said..
Do aluminium smelters need to run 24 x 7?
There's not much between Perth and Brisbane, not sure why you need to connect them. Maybe just from Adelaide to Brisbane.
Yes, a smelter has to be kept hot. If they lose power for more than 4 to 6 hours, the potlines go solid and everyone goes home, maybe permanently. They are extremely sensitive to electricity price and will move overseas at the slightest price rise. When you buy aluminium, you're really just buying a solid lump of electricity.
Sweetheart deals were made with smelters when the coal-fired power stations were being built in the 70's and 80's. It's a match made in heaven..... a coal-fired power station operates most efficiently when it can run steadily 24/7, and a smelter consumes near-constant power 24/7. As a part of the deal for cheap power, the smelter generally agrees that it can be suddenly disconnected from the network if a generator trips, provided power is reinstated within an agreed time. Those deals were for 25-30 years, and when they expire, it's not always worth hanging around. I wonder what long term, 24/7 deal you can do with a solar or wind farm? I wonder if the aluminium is going to follow the coal, or can the combination of solar and wind provide enough base power around the clock to run smelters economically once the coal power is all gone?
Select to expand quoteKiteWindnSurf said..
There's not much between Perth and Brisbane, not sure why you need to connect them. Maybe just from Adelaide to Brisbane.
Good point. Solar farms on the east coast are built inland to escape the clouds, but they don't need to be 5,000 km away. The network already connects Adelaide to Brisbane, and is being reinforced to allow the sharing of geographically diverse solar and wind between QLD, NSW, VIC, SA and TAS. The question is what do you actually achieve by building a line all the way across Australia rather than the planned strengthening of much shorter interconnections between the eastern states?
www.powerlink.com.au/expanding-nsw-qld-transmission-transfer-capacityhttps://www.transgrid.com.au/what-we-do/projects/current-projects/Victoria%20to%20NSW%20Interconnector
aemo.com.au/en/initiatives/major-programs/victoria-to-new-south-wales-interconnector-west-regulatory-investment-test-for-transmission
www.electranet.com.au/projects/project-energyconnect/
arena.gov.au/news/scoping-nsws-central-west-orana-as-a-renewable-energy-zone/
WA is fine on their own, they're even gradually pulling their own network down as they transition to having more stand-alone power systems, which are now more economic and reliable than maintaining existing AC lines, let alone building unnecessarily long DC transmission lines from east to west.
westernpower.com.au/our-energy-evolution/grid-technology/stand-alone-power-system/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=powering-our-lives&gclid=CjwKCAjw74b7BRA_EiwAF8yHFJtkiv7-ZFUmybMD_YYrDn2xYhEbPqZTpjGItu5wGLT6GojKbi5h-BoCscEQAvD_BwE
I think he is pushing a HV DC line which doesn't have the losses of typical AC line. I don't know anything about this sort of stuff, but after 1000km it apparently becomes economical. Hence in the PRC you can build one in XinJiang next to coal and solar and transmit East where everyone lives. But I'd say they have more population between the two and different economics, just like the NT to Singapore solar project which is actually pretty cool. That's also over 4000km distance, but maybe NT is nearest desert sun to them, and cheapest renewable project they can do. Not much wind and a bunch of cloudy days in equatorial Singapore I guess.
Yep, stand-alone solar or otherwise networks make a lot of sense in remote WA. When I was a kid it cost the gov't and my parents 20 - $30k in 1970s dollars to connect us to the power grid; solar and batteries might be the option of choice now.
