11:31 AM Sun 1 Nov 2009 GMT
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'A series of Australian challengers raced under a NYYC appointed Jury and Race Committee before Australia II's win in 1983'
Sally Samins
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Sail-World is happy to publish our readers' views an opinions on the America's Cup. Please address your contributions to
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Sender: Sean Spence
Message: So, the thoughts accumulate:
Who cares any more?
History will be curious; my bit of history isn't long enough to be curious about this.
It's not about sailing, sailing technology, sailing rules, sailing people, yachts, the sea (the OPEN sea) or any form of joy in the thing.
It's not even about business, really.
So why bother? I'm about as curious as I would be seeing the two billionaires arguing about a mud wrestling match they don't have the courage to actually start.
And meanwhile, there's plenty of real sailing, with real yachts, real people, real joy and the real water. Also real advances in technology, participation and yes, the business of sailing.
Leave them to it.
Sean Spence.
Related News Item: No real progress in America's Cup venue debacle Link to News:
www.sail-world.com/indexs.cfm?nid=62735
Sender: Miguel C Campoamor
Message: Hi Richard:
I agree 100 x 100 with your excellent exposition in this Gladwell's Line. It's time to race without anymore legal delays.
Best regards,
Miguel
Related News Item: Gladwell's Line: A rough week for the Cup at 60 Centre Street Link to News:
www.sail-world.com/indexs.cfm?nid=62689
Sender: Tom McCall
Message: Richard,
Very eloquent letter, I am proud of you and your ability to put it in an uncomplicated and accurate analysis of telling it the way it is.
Its a classic example of one of old Jim Davern's favorite sayings that people elevate themselves to their own height of incompetence. The contempt that these two egotistical opponents, have for yachting supporters and enthusiasts world wide and their views is blatantly obvious. This utter contempt they have for all of us and our opinions is totally abhorrent.
Well Done Richard,
kind regards
Tom McCall
Related News Item: Gladwell's Line: A rough week for the Cup at 60 Centre Street Link to News:
www.sail-world.com/indexs.cfm?nid=62689
Sender: Doug Elder
Message: Excellent! Totally nailed it. Well done.
Related News Item: Gladwell's Line: A rough week for the Cup at 60 Centre Street Link to News:
www.sail-world.com/indexs.cfm?nid=62689
Sender: Nip Tanner
Message: Thank you for taking a step back from the current mess and framing it in a very useful historical perspective. Your analysis is lucid, thoughtful and helpful to understanding where we are and, hopefully, how to proceed at this point.
Related News Item: Gladwell's Line: A rough week for the Cup at 60 Centre Street Link to News:
www.sail-world.com/indexs.cfm?nid=62689
Sender: Paul Teen
Message: I have lived in the U.A.E. since 2000 after sailing here. I have sailed the Straights of Homuz. I have also visited the site at Al Hamra,its 25km from my unit, and i think its a grand facility. Work in progress but they get things done here fast. I think the yanks are stalling and using any excuse not to race in R.A.K. We live safer here than the people of N.Y. with all its crime.
Related News Item: Gladwell's Line: New America's Cup legal slugfest signaled by GGYC Link to News:
www.sail-world.com/indexs.cfm?nid=62297
Sender: Donald Maxwell
Message: If you don't expect your boat to win by sailing, then win by manipulating the rules.
Related News Item: Bob Fisher: Swiss club gains control of America's Cup rules Link to News:
www.sail-world.com/indexs.cfm?nid=61554
Sender: Eric Knight
Hi Richard
Roll on Feb 2010.
Historically the AC was all about the richest blokes battling it out with the biggest fastest lawyers in the courtroom, and the biggest fastest yachts on the race track. Over the last few decades a pack of boring slug sailors decided it wasn't fair and they wanted a go. Realising it was out of their league they managed to change it by agreeing to not argue any more. The fast lawyers were gone, along with the leading edge boats, replaced by things so slow they couldn't help but go at the same speed. About as stimulating as replacing formula one cars with Morris minors and then jumping up and down with excitement when they all manage to achieve 50 mph at the same time.
There is plenty of fleet and match racing for slugs, bring on the big boys with the real toys, let them play lawyer games first and then lets see some real formula one racing.
The biggest concern for the slug lovers should be that if the television world masses see a 100ft multi do a bow plant at 50 knots, they will realise that they have been conned, not all yachts are dull, and won't want to watch slugs anymore.
We sailors look forward to the TP 52s, the Louis Vuiton, and such like, but we should not try to prevent our sport from becoming a top television spectacle for the masses, we will all benefit in the long run.
Cheers Eric Knight
Sender: Ian Thompson
Why are we bothering with a regatta called the 'America's' Cup. The Louis Vitton Pacific Series proved we can do other things. Yes it has the history etc but if things keep going like this, then our sport need to evolve into a World Cup possibly the Sir Peter Blake Cup. Something in modern machines like the TP 52 or STP 65 where the racing is intense and the boats can be used for more than just a regatta. Imagine if we could see 20 odd nations competing instead of 2 and maybe even multiple teams.
Let's move forward and let these rich Wa.....ers play their own game. Let's go sailing
Thommo
---------------------------------------------
Pacific Cruising
www.pacific-cruising.com
Sender: Pierre A Varreon
Message: As we all mentioned too many times before, those two multibillion dollars laden brats are simply killing the A Cup. Like if Mac Do and, or Coke or MicroStuff, would try to getting in one event at some venue, taking over and managing the IOC structure for all the Games sessions to come up. And why not for them to run the UN?
Can we form an America's Cup Defence Committee requesting the NYSSC with approval from the NYYC, that SNG and GGYC shall be stripped off all possible legal contention, title holding and any further challenges in view to compete to this Trophy?
They are just destroying an historical, universal and the oldest heritage in sports and sportmanship, actually subjected to a sincere admiration from all sailing fans over the world
Related News Item: Gladwell's Line: America's Cup enters the Theater of the Absurd
Link to News:
www.sail-world.com/indexs.cfm?nid=61902
Sender: David Pierce
Message: ISAF's President has publicly wrung his hands over the decline in the sport's participation, yet can't seem to make the connection between the thunderstorm in shop window and the reaction it causes among the very people that we at grass rooots level get when trying to recruit.
ISAF needs to act decisively or be seen to be irrelevant. There is plenty of power in the constitution to rein in the appalling behaviour. Best solution is to withdraw consent to the Cup being sailed in a region that so clearly fails the simple test of 'ocean unfettered by headland', award the custody of the cup (but not as winner) to GGYC and award the organisation of the event to GGYC so it can go back to being a multi team event, with GGYC acting as the 'Defender', with the normal challenge process starting forthwith.
I challenge both teams to accept this solution, halt their legal action and put the legal budget into a youth LTS and coaching fund administered by ISAF.
Related News Item: Gladwell's Line: America?s Cup enters the Theater of the Absurd
Link to News:
www.sail-world.com/indexs.cfm?nid=61902
Sender: Donan Raven
Message: Attn: Richard / Anyone who might be able to reply to this observation
Location today seems to be the next sensitive issue. If the first 31 cup defenses were held at the defender's home, in the 32nd and 33rd, Societe Nautique de Geneve donot.
-Do SNG hold an annual regatta on an ocean water course (on the sea or an arm of the sea) and where is it?
My thanks for excellent AC coverage! Keep it coming, Donan
Related News Item: Gladwell's Line: America's Cup - Battle by Affidavit
Link to News:
www.sail-world.com/indexs.cfm?nid=61713
Sender: Donald Pierce
Richard Gladwell on Measurements Content Excellent and definitive. I can tell you that rules interpretations and legal wrangling ruins so many sports....we have raced (and won) this year at Sebring, Le Mans, and the Petit Le Mans (last weekend ) with our Ferrari 430GT but the rules interpretations are limiting our air intake (restrictor) so the car cannot run at top speed. All of our competitors have bigger restrictors, including cars with much larger engines. It is definitely frustrating, because in short races, we are at a distinct disadvantage. But if we keep winning the major races, they won't change our restrictor so we're competitive in the short ones....it's a very tough situation. Will we ever see America's Cup racing return to a sport and not a legal event...at this point, I am afraid not. from Donald Pierce
Related News Item: Gladwell's Line: America's Cup - Battle by Affidavit
Link to News:
www.sail-world.com/indexs.cfm?nid=61713
Sender: John Rousmaniere
'At that point the America's Cup as we know it will be dead. One side will have won the battle, but sailing will have lost the war - and all over the meaning of just a couple of words.'
These guys can't help missing the point, time and time again.
John Rousmaniere
Related News Item: Gladwell's Line: America's Cup - Battle by Affidavit
Link to News:
www.sail-world.com/indexs.cfm?nid=61713
Sender: Art Tanner
Message: Well done! It appears that you are becoming quite the legal scholar. Probably not your first interest, but perhaps inevitable given the importance of all the legal wrangling that has occurred since July 2007.
I have enjoyed and benefited from all of your articles where you dug into the key issues as they have appeared and evolved.
Thanks.
Related News Item: Gladwell's Line: America's Cup - Battle by Affidavit
Link to News:
www.sail-world.com/indexs.cfm?nid=61713
Editor
Thanks, I was an Int Judge for 16 years, so this stuff comes fairly easily. Also having reported through the 1988-91 saga, it is a familiar path, sadly. About four weeks before then end of the 2007 Americas Cup, I threw out all my records and files on the Mis-Match thinking that no-one would be silly enough to go down that path again. How wrong I was!
Sender: Hew Hamilton
Message: While not mentioning the rudder in measuring the LWL of an IOM Class sailboat;
C.6.3 USE
(a) The keel shall not move or rotate relative to the hull, except by flexing.
(b) The hull appendages shall not project outboard of the hull.
Related News Item: Gladwell's Line: America's Cup - Battle by Affidavit
Editor
Yes, the Int One Metre class was the first we looked at, as it is a box rule and length restricted to one metre. There is no specific rule saying that a rudder is excluded from the LWL measurement. In fact there is no LWL measurement, just 'length' - a defined term in the ISAF Equipment Rules of Sailing, which apply in the class. In C.6.3 (b) there are two ERS defined terms used: 'hull appendages' and 'hull' - a rudder is one of the items included by the ERS as a 'hull appendage' and is, by definition, a separate entity from the 'hull' but is excluded from length calculations because of this specific exclusion and not by any accepted measurement principle of LWL.
Sender: chris edwards
Message: Richard Gladwell deserves a salute and applause for his consistent and comprehensive insight reporting of the current America's Cup debacle.
For most if not all sailors not involved in the 'court room battle' or not a member of one of the teams participating in this 'rich boys quarrel', the machinations being played out in San Francisco and in Geneva are practically impossible to comprehend.
Richard Gladwell does enlighten us even if at the same time bewildering us even more....... as to how such an honourable and ancient Trophy should suffer the disgrace and ignominy of the present Defender's attempt to keep a hold of the Auld Mug come what may, and being pursued by a relentless terrier who I suspect never ever wished to be drawn into such an ugly and demeaning dogfight.
Bring back the J boats and let us find some gentlemen to race them !
Thank you.
Sender: Sam Bearda
Message: The America's cup is in its death throes. It received its lethal injection when Alinghi (with then skipper Russell Coutts) was allowed to enter the 2003 AC in Auckland. And after the original cup was demolished, it is only a replica after all. Who needs it now anyway? Will make a nice champagne decanter on Ernesto's mantelpiece. He will go down in history as the idiot who destroyed the America's Cup.
Sender: Leroy Gallant
Message: I am stupefied.
There is only one possible explanation for Justice Kornreich's '... unsportsmanlike behavior of Golden Gate ...' statement. She must have intended '... unsportsmanlike behavior of Alinghi that has resulted in substantially reducing SNG's advantage as originally contemplated by the Deed.'
Sender: Mark R H Newman
So the ISAF has sold out for only 150,000 Euros...the sport has been cheapened by this appalling act of prostitution. The America's Cup has been fatally injured and now awaits the slaughter man to put an end to the miserable saga it has become.
Editor:
For the last few cycles ISAF have charged a fee based on the cost of services provided. Given that for this event possible just two races, maybe three will be sailed, covering just 5-7 legs and two or three tacks there doesn't seem to be much scope for on the water services. Off the water action might be a different story. action. Probably more relevant is the fact that no venue fee has been charged, and it would have been a nice touch, given the relative financial means of the two protagonists if a reasonable venue fee could have been negotiated and the proceeds put into ISAF's International Youth Trust, where it could be applied to spread the sport of sailing.
Sender: Tom Webster
as the world has now read the protocol of the feb match for the a/cup and russell's open letter to ISAF asking for appropriate changes, one must ask ' how did an international federation become a part of an agreement in which one side of of an international competition was granted control of the rules and judges in such an advantageous manner' people and sports federations obviously make mistakes.. the character and reputation of ISAF are on the line, not so much in what they have done, but in how and the manner in which they handle this going forward. ISAF must take control, show leadership and protect the integrity of sailing's most prestigious event, the americas cup. any hesitation to do so immediately will probably lead to irreparable damage to ISAF's role as controlling body of the sport of sailing in the future. taking the correct actions at this time should be the only item on the agenda... no one should care who is at fault. it is unimportant at this time!. what is important, is that the leadership and council of ISAF step forward now and regain their role as protector of the rules and integrity of our sport .
with regards
tom webster
Sender: Alastair Taylor
Related News Item: TeamOrigin launches 'Race for Change'
'first major sports team to put its weight behind a climate change platform'. Ahhh I think not. That would have been the Honda Formula 1 team... and look what happened to them!
For that to happen though they need to get out from behind Alinghi's skirt and start competing...
Sender: Bernhard Stegmeier
Message: Hi all,
The way I interpret the ISAF Regulations, I think that Tom Webster is not correct in his comment re ISAF's rights on the word 'World'. The ISAF Regulation 18.1 states: 'ISAF approval is required for any event that is described as a World Championship, uses the word ?World? in the title of the event, ....' To protect this right, ISAF shall use the Eligibility Code, Regulation 19.4, that states: '.... a competitor?s ISAF eligibility shall be promptly suspended (..) 19.4 (c) for competing (...) in an event that the competitor knew or should have known was a prohibited event.' And furthermore, the Regulation 19.4.1 states: 'A prohibited event is an event: (...) (c) c) that is described as a world championship or uses the word 'world', either in the title of the event or otherwise, and that is not approved by ISAF;'
Key is the ISAF approval as Scott McLeod stated in his interview given a few days ago. I do not doubt that ISAF is a fair, correct partner when it comes to negotiating with the newly created World Sailing League (sic - presumably the Louis Vuitton World Series) concerning their series of events, keeping in mind the interests of existing events. The approval, which details the rights and responsibilities when organising a 'Major Event' or a 'Series of Major Events' may be given by ISAF charging an 'Approval Fee' according to Regulation 18.16.2.
Btw, I assume that the much disputed 'secret America's Cup Agreement' between ISAF and the AC Trustee Soci?t? Nautique Geneva' re the 33rd Cup perfectly falls under the normal ISAF Regulation behaviour. I therefore can hardly understand the 'drama' performed by BOR and a number of its supporters re this document, in which ISAF delegates rights and responsibilites against a fee.
The ISAF Regulation 18 ISAF AND OTHER EVENTS may seem complicated, but it covers in my opinion quite well all major issues and procedures concerning event organisation. Every ISAF Member National Authority and Recognised Class can submit modifications and additions to these Regulations to be deliberated at the ISAF Annual Meeting. And the decisions at this meeting are finally made by Council Members delegated by the ISAF Member Groups.
Last but not least, I fully support a well structured playing field for the benefit of the professional sailors, but without having commercially interested bodies taking the lions-share of the money involved.
Sincerely
Bernie Stegmeier, past ISAF Council Member
Editor:
ISAF regulations do give the world body the ability to sanction new events, hopefully theses provisions will be used to find a place within the ISAF family for the Louis Vuitton World Series.
Sender: Tom Webster
richard, i read with interest your article re LV world sailing league. i think that ISAF has controlling rights for world championships in sailing classes. Anyone can use the word world in a title without the word championships attached to it....also with the mess ISAF has allowed to continue for the last 24 months for the elite of the sport, the professionals of the A/Cup game, maybe they should rethink their own positions. also i think the lv series has little conflict with the existing match racing circuit as this is the elite of the big boat crews and skippers far different from what exists now.
with regards
tom webster
Sender: Dennis Hambleton
BMW oracle is na?ve in thinking that having pushed all other challengers aside by using the courts to secure a Deed of Gift match that they remain entitled to all the 'niceties' of a multi challenger event, eg, international rules, race committees, juries, agreed protocols, etc. That is not the case. They are entitled to the provisions in the Deed, no more. There is nothing in the Deed to prevent a defender from using the intellectual property, copyright, or other assets of a third party, either for a fee or freely, to administer a match. That is a defender's prerogative.
Overlooking the Americans' own history of defending the Cup as illustrated by Ski Lissiman, BMW Oracle claim that such action is not fair. However, there is nothing in the Deed that requires that requires a defender to be fair. In fact, the word 'fair' does not even appear in the Deed. The Deed provides for 'friendly' competition between nations. The Cup history is littered with friendly competition that was not fair, at least in part, with the catamaran versus big boat challenge at the top of the list. Liberty re-ballasting for the final race is another example. These 'unfair' events were permissible because they were not expressly forbidden. As it was then, as it is now!
The New York courts rely heavily on the argument (in several instances) that the settlors of the Deed could have been more prescriptive or definitive in the drafting of the Deed but chose not to be. Fairness is one of those instances. They could have included a provision for fairness but instead chose only a provision for friendliness. The test for friendliness is distinctly different to the test for fairness.
Dennis
Editor's Note:
After having Club Nautico Espanol de Vela displaced as Challenger of Record, Golden Gate YC offered Societe Nautique de Genenve a Multi Challenger, Mutual Consent Match under the same or similar Protocol as used in 32 America's Cup. SNG elected instead to sail a Deed of Gift Match in Multihulls. Otherwise the comments about fairness are very accurate. The Appeal in Mercury Bay was whether there was implied term of 'fair' in a Match and the Appeal Court decided there was no implied term.
Sender: Skip Lissiman
Message: There seems to be missing in all the articles I read about the 33rd match for the Americas Cup an understanding of what the Americans call - ''a fair contest.
Lets be honest here - the Americas Cup matches sailed under the Deed of Gift rules going back in the 1800's was never a fair contest and always heavily favoured the defender.
So anyone willing to make a Deed of Gift Challenge must accept a one sided match favouring the defender.
That is why over time, ''the protocol' based on mutual consent (which in this contest is sadly lacking) between the challenger of record and the defender has been such an important document - to even up the one sided bias towards the Defender, that the Deed of Gift has, as written nearly 150 years ago.
It is clear that the New York Courts accepts that the defender has an advantage under the Deed.
Even back in 1970 the NYYC appointed the jury. Don't we all remember the famous Sir Frank Packer quote - 'complaining to the NYYC is like complaining to your mother in law about your wife'.
Many say Gretel II was hard done by being disqualified in one of the matches against Intrepid for a starting line incedent, with a NYYC jury hearing evidence - not an international jury.
It wasn't until 1974 that the first international jury for the America s Cup was appointed.
Right through until the last match in Valencia, the defender always appointed their own RC from the defending club.
So what is wrong with the Defender doing that for a DOG match??
Skip Lissiman
Editor's Note: Skip Lissiman was a trimmer aboard Australia II in the 1983 America's Cup
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Sender: Miguel C Campoamor
Message: Hi Richard,
I'm very happy with the latest news about Louis Vuitton World Series. It will be great for the professional people who works in this sport we love, like ETNZ and others.
Casually, almost two years ago, in the E-mailbag I wrote about a similar Louis Vuitton event (in a message signed by me as MCC McCamp in December 2007). It was not the same idea, but had the same objective: a way to have the sailing teams working.
It's amazing: in other great sports like Football (soccer) or Rugby, with the best professional sportmen involved, there are annual competitions or Leagues, there are Continental and World Cups every two years; but in the great sport of Sailing, there is not.
Yes, there is the America's Cup, but it happens every how many years? (Well, 4yrs between 1983 and 1987, 1yr until 1988, 4 yrs until 1992, 3yrs until 1995, 5yrs until 2000, 3yrs until 2003, 4yrs until 2007, xyrs until 20xx?).
It's necessary to have a world class Sailing event/competition/league for the professional sailing teams with a reasonable periodicity (at least every 2 years, but better every year), always with the same name and the same rules. Perhaps, the Louis Vuitton World Series is what the Sailing has been looking for more than 150 years. Amen.
Best regards from Spain
Miguel
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